President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks out

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

The terrorists would have won if NO ONE returned to their jobs in NYC following the attacks. That, obviously, did not happen. If you want to keep thinking that though, go right ahead. I don't see how being aware of your surroundings and seeing something out of the ordinary that makes you question it, makes us cowards. Again, congratulations to you guys who have balls of steel.

 

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

:yeahthat:

I was just about to state the same thing. I am ashamed of some of you. Again, you have the hindsight of what this event was. You are at minimum, Aviation enthusiasts, perhaps even likely to understand what was happening. To expect the average citizen to do the same is naive.

I like making fun of New Yawkers as much as anyone, and I have plenty to dislike about the city, shucks, Miss DarrenF is from Brooklyn, so enough said.

But man, you guys are too much. :banghead:

Dear Mr. DarrenF:

I hope you get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars every morning and every night.

Love,
Another Brooklyn girl

 

[darrenf]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Dear Mr. DarrenF:

I hope you get down on your knees and thank your lucky stars every morning and every night.

Love,
Another Brooklyn girl

I don't have a choice! :laff:

 

[MikeD]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I think there's a healthy middle ground that can come out of this.

I agree that we, as a nation, can't let overriding fear drive our daily lives due to a terrorist act, and yes...we have to be strong even in light of actions such as 9/11 that have occurred.

By the same token, whether we like it or not, there will be those that will become panicked from an unusual flyover such as this, or become caught up in hysteria of panic that others around them may have.....false info/rumor that generates from it, etc. You'll always have the (and this is NOT a slam) "lowest common denominator" you have to plan for.

Doing things that can possibly create mass panic like this probably isn't the wisest thing to do or way to do it. Still though, aircraft flights around the Statur of Liberty shouldn't be forbidden just because of 9/11.

Now, had nearly any aircraft been involved in this....photo op for a C-17 for example...it'd have been probably more widely published. But due to it being the aircraft it was...VC-25...the announcement that went to the NYPD, etc, was prefaced "not for public dissemination", likely due to security reasons.

So we have a dilemma here......we can't (as a nation or city) cower in fear; yet neither should unusual situations [think how the common man may see it, not you and me] be performed without a little more planning. That's just the real-politics of it; rightly or wrongly.

Hopefully, something was learned from this......from both sides of the aisle.

 

[Velocipede]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I love to see our tax dollars going to good use

I'd reply to this, but Hacker already did.

Remember, flying hours are flying hours. Military units are given specific numbers of allotted hours per year in order to accomplish specific training and mission objectives. Pilots need to accomplish certain numbers of events (individual sorties of different types, types of approaches, etc) every year during those allotted flying hours.

Exactly. Hours are allotted for pilot training and currency. Then, if you need some publicity shots, you rendezvous with a couple fighters, one with a photog aboard. An additional 30 minutes? Not much of a waste of money.

Those hours are going to be flown off essentially no matter what the type of mission is that is being accomplished. This particular photo flight updated currencies for the pilots involved, added to their required flights for the month, and allowed them to log off required events at a minimum.

I imagine they signed off some formation time (a required qualification), especially for the SAM guys who conceivably NEED to fly formation with fighters.

You can bet that the VC-25 and the F-16 didn't just take off from Andrews, circle Mahanttan, then land. The probably went and did other things to log training events after that.

Again, the sortie and hours are going to be flown off either way to make sure everyone gets required currencies.

Yep.

So, why didn't they publicize the mission? The FAA sure knew about it in advance. I can see why they didn't though. Low altitude over NYC? You don't need a whole lot of notice to grab a Redeye and drop "AF1" into Manhattan.

That said, I can also appreciate the feelings of the general public when they witnessed this event with no prior notice. I'd hightail it out of a building as well. You could call me a coward all you want, but if I had lived in NYC on 9/11 it would have taken a long time to get the smell of burning WTC out of my nose.

So here's my bottom line:

1. Was it a waste of taxpayer money? No.
2. Are photo runs a legitimate military mission? Yes.
3. Should they have notified the public? Yes and no.

All in all, they probably should have take pictures of it in front of Mt. Rushmore.

 

[Baronman]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I'm still thinking about this..

Let's say you're sitting in your office on the 75th floor of the Empire State Building, or the Chrysler Building. Right then a coworker calls to your attention to something going on outside. You look out your window and see the silhouette of a 747 going away from you but banking sharply followed by two F-16s. It's a little hazy and you can't see the airline that it is, but you know it's a 747 and you can tell there are two fighters.

If there was ever a time to get a little concerned, maybe get out of the building, I'd say now is the time.

Or are you going to wait till it's actually headed towards your building? Better hope there is a standing order to shoot it down.

 

[Velocipede]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

To tell you the truth, if I had lived in NYC through 9/11 I'd be outta there. Remember, there were a lot of people who were told to stay in their offices in the WTC.

Boy, was that bad advice.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I'm still thinking about this..

Let's say you're sitting in your office on the 75th floor of the Empire State Building, or the Chrysler Building. Right then a coworker calls to your attention to something going on outside. You look out your window and see the silhouette of a 747 going away from you but banking sharply followed by two F-16s. It's a little hazy and you can't see the airline that it is, but you know it's a 747 and you can tell there are two fighters.

If there was ever a time to get a little concerned, maybe get out of the building, I'd say now is the time.

Or are you going to wait till it's actually headed towards your building? Better hope there is a standing order to shoot it down.

I'd have more faith in the F-16 drivers than that, and if the thing hadn't been blown out of the sky from 50 miles away, I'd assume that they were well trained enough to tear the living crap out of the thing with their guns.

But that involves thinking through the situation instead of just reacting. There's no way that the military would let a pair of F-16's chase a 747 up the Hudson while wondering, "Huh, you think he's going to Hartford?" That plane would be toast long before that.

 

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I'm still thinking about this..

Let's say you're sitting in your office on the 75th floor of the Empire State Building, or the Chrysler Building. Right then a coworker calls to your attention to something going on outside. You look out your window and see the silhouette of a 747 going away from you but banking sharply followed by two F-16s. It's a little hazy and you can't see the airline that it is, but you know it's a 747 and you can tell there are two fighters.

If there was ever a time to get a little concerned, maybe get out of the building, I'd say now is the time.

Or are you going to wait till it's actually headed towards your building? Better hope there is a standing order to shoot it down.

Sweetie, don't waste your time. We're obviously cowards who've let the terrorists win. You obviously don't have enough testosterone coursing through your body for most of this crowd.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

 

[Baronman]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I'd have more faith in the F-16 drivers than that, and if the thing hadn't been blown out of the sky from 50 miles away, I'd assume that they were well trained enough to tear the living crap out of the thing with their guns.

But that involves thinking through the situation instead of just reacting. There's no way that the military would let a pair of F-16's chase a 747 up the Hudson while wondering, "Huh, you think he's going to Hartford?" That plane would be toast long before that.

Ok. So you'd go back to clearing the paper jam out of the fax machine while this goes down.

How do I know that the F-16s have been chasing this 747 for a while? How do I know the F-16s are armed? How do I know that Obama hasn't made it clear that no plane is to be shot down over a populated area? You know, better to take out some bankers and greedy people than have a plane go down in an economically challenged area. My ass is in gear moving to a lower floor, ask questions later.

 

[Velocipede]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Yeah, don't forget, if the terrorists drop a 747 on Manhattan, the results are pretty much the same as if the Air Force shoots one down there.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

If you could get a secondary explosion from the 747s fuel then it wouldn't be as bad as a terrorist driving it into the building. A good amount of that energy would be lost in the explosion and also spread over a larger area.

 

[Velocipede]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Its a pretty good bet if a 747 came down on Manhattan, it WOULD hit a building.

 

[MFT1Air]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I think there's a healthy middle ground that can come out of this.

I agree that we, as a nation, can't let overriding fear drive our daily lives due to a terrorist act, and yes...we have to be strong even in light of actions such as 9/11 that have occurred.

By the same token, whether we like it or not, there will be those that will become panicked from an unusual flyover such as this, or become caught up in hysteria of panic that others around them may have.....false info/rumor that generates from it, etc. You'll always have the (and this is NOT a slam) "lowest common denominator" you have to plan for.

Doing things that can possibly create mass panic like this probably isn't the wisest thing to do or way to do it. Still though, aircraft flights around the Statur of Liberty shouldn't be forbidden just because of 9/11.

Now, had nearly any aircraft been involved in this....photo op for a C-17 for example...it'd have been probably more widely published. But due to it being the aircraft it was...VC-25...the announcement that went to the NYPD, etc, was prefaced "not for public dissemination", likely due to security reasons.

So we have a dilemma here......we can't (as a nation or city) cower in fear; yet neither should unusual situations [think how the common man may see it, not you and me] be performed without a little more planning. That's just the real-politics of it; rightly or wrongly.

Hopefully, something was learned from this......from both sides of the aisle.

Point well taken. I agree wholeheartedly.

You know what's a damned shame? That every citizen of NYC & NJ who survived and/or knew some of the victims of 9/11 cannot be as manly as you who think it's funny to mock them. And to those of you who state you'd have waited until being "absolutely sure of impending disaster" before taking any precautionary actions--do you realize that the people who died in the 2nd tower did so because they were told it was safe to go back to their offices while they were evacuating? The ones who heeded the PA announcement were killed.
I have to admit, I'm more than a little disturbed by the opinions and rationale I've read on this thread. I think some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for mocking those of us who were witness to 9/11 and have some very raw feelings. I imagine you'd feel different if your hometown was ever involved in an attack, but I doubt your towns would make good targets.

Please reread my post - I'm not going to immediately ASSUMEanything negative. . .

Kneejerk reaction? False alarm? Yes, their reactions were. Understandable? Perhaps, but your analogy is inappropriate. I'll concede people lost their lives because of misinformation. You're in New York City. If one sees a plane in an off-nominal flight path, I'll have a heighted sense of concern about the aircrafts' intentions. I'll closely monitor what the planes are doing before I take appropriate action to safeguard my life. I can see people now being so spooked by staring at an airplane in the sky. . .they walk into the street and get hit by a bus or automobile. That would be tragic.

My original comment stands. . .Inform the public. It would have been an excellent public relations event.

PS - I also don't run during earthquakes. I do duck and turn in the direction of gunfire or automobile backblasts that resemble gunfire.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Re: not publishing the mission.
Is there really a large concern about attack by MANPADS in the CONUS?

 

[ready2fly]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Stan, and others.....If you think NY'ers cower in fear everytime we see or hear a plane in the sky..you'd be dead wrong. What WILL get our attention is something out the ordinary that evokes some memories we'd rather not have. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that. And as others have said, not everyone is a savvy pilot or aviation geek.

Fair enough.

But, in my defense: It did seem that, in some of your posts here, you were almost insinuating that those in NYC who saw 9/11 first hand went from the hard-core-who-gives-a-fart-about-anyone-but-us folks that New Yorkers are known for- to cowering, sniviling fear-mongers and I just cannot accept that.

Additionally, you keep mentioning that we are being "insensitve." I hardly think that most New Yorkers give a rats butt what anyone outside of New York thinks.

God knows New Yorkers (and you exhibited some of what I'm referring to in your comment about everyone ELSES hometown) are fond of insulting everything NOT New York.

Just saying. NY doesn't deserve, nor do I believe they want, our pity.

There are some young people out in the world by themselves for the first time, some senior citizens and some other people who may bear some emotional scars from 9/11. To dismiss that with the lack of sensitivity that's been exhibited here, is a bit over the top, IMHO.

Again, I don't think so. New Yorkers are supposed to be strong....so be strong.

Remember: al Queda did not just attack "New York" on 9/11...they attacked every last American on Earth. If the rest of us can move on with our lives, so should New Yorkers.

Granted - you're right that there are a large number of folks who just cannot get past the pain and fear.

But I have a little more faith in Americans that we have moved past the fear and moved into acceptance and defensive modes.

Just my thoughts.

 

[MFT1Air]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Re: not publishing the mission.
Is there really a large concern about attack by MANPADS in the CONUS?

I'm really curious how someone does not care to explain that. Hello? TFRs? As if we're not aware of the President's movements? In this case, it wasn't even Air Force One. I don't follow that rationale either.

 

[MFT1Air]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

There are some young people out in the world by themselves for the first time, some senior citizens and some other people who may bear some emotional scars from 9/11. To dismiss that with the lack of sensitivity that's been exhibited here, is a bit over the top, IMHO.

My humble opinion. . .very few on this thread are dismissing anything. I'll stand by my belief some people overreacted and the media hyped it up.

Scars from 9/11. In relative terms, Qgar. . .I believe there are far too many others not necessarily in the world but closer to home have been emotionally traumatized by rape, domestic abuse. I'm concerned about the thousands of vets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan and the emotional scars inflicted upon them. I'm concerned about natural disasters such as hurricanes and tornadoes. Every freakin' year from May to October, people on the Gulf of Mexico shores are glued to the Weather Channel monitoring weather activities arriving from the Atlantic Ocean. Paranoia? I think not. It's called a heathy concern. Let's not even discuss possibility/probability of another 9/11 as it relates to the possibility of tornadoes/floods/wildfires/hurricanes. . .natural disasters adversely affecting peoples' lives.

I simply put it in perspective. I'd be more concerned with another bird strike bringing down another airplane before I consider major airliner hijacking.

But - it's all relative. I'm not dismissing anything. I'm simply putting it in what I believe is it's proper perspective.

 

[Velocipede]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Re: not publishing the mission.
Is there really a large concern about attack by MANPADS in the CONUS?

Yes. Do you have any idea how many U.S. Redeye missiles were provided to the Taliban when they were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan? Additionally, there is NO control over the Russian supply.

And when you're talking NYC, who knows how many of those could be floating around within easy access.

Remember after 9/11 when they were talking about equipping commercial airliners with anti-missile systems? There was a reason for that.