President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks out

[darrenf]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

[

I asked if someone would panic and I never got an answer - I didn't even care about fight or flight response. DarrenF is advocating panic.

I don't think fight or flight response is a good idea either. Any of those terms implies you are leaving rational thinking behind and just reacting to a perceived threat, which, in this case didn't exist. I don't think that reacting without thinking is a good idea.

Where am I advocating PANIC! :banghead:

This thread is just surreal. :whatever:

 

[darrenf]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Panic:an overwhelming feeling of fear and anxiety;sudden mass fear and anxiety over anticipated events;

Panic attack: A sudden experience of fear, often accompanied by the physiological "fight or flight" response

Fight or flight: The body's first reaction to perceived stress

How would you use panic in a sentence then? Is it WRONG to have a fight or flight response in any of the situations I have described? Is it wrong it have a panic attack in any of the situations I have described?

I like how you truncate the definitions to fit your point.

 

[MFT1Air]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

I'm not sure what you want from me. Your original question as to "proximity" leads me to believe you would wait until finding out how close we were to a fire BEFORE acting. Sorry but that is foolish, at best.

In a way yes, but most importantly to compare it with the 9/11 incident, people directly involved with 9/11 who aren't necessarily citizens of New York are going to behave more cautiously when they see an airplane flying over just as you, having been a fire victim "upclose and personal" are going to behave more cautiously than someone who was, say. . .across the street from a fire.

Having been a victim of a fire, the next time you hear fire, are you going to panic? I think not. You have a more heightened sense of awareness if you smell smoke or hear an alarm, but for many "victims" it's not a fear/panic or paranoia. That's my only position on the matter. Yes, there are going to be those types of individuals, but I believe fear/panic/"freakin' out" is the norm nor should it be for subsequent experiences. . .a heightened sense of caution and awareness? Yes. . .panic? No.

A further believe the flyover wasn't some insensitive gesture by the government. I would admit it was poorly communicated to the public or the media, but to say it was some callous, inappropriate action in my opinion is an indicator of a naive, uninformed individual.

. . .and that's my final "shot" at the dead horse.

 

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

How about the term, "concern?" People respond to perceived threats every day. What do you suggest? Are you condoning standing around and waiting for the crap to hit the fan (possibly) or being a bit cautious and proactive in the hopes of saving your ass? I guess I'm a moron since I don't understand the line of reasoning of some on this thread.
I also hope I'm wrong, but as a pilot do you not respond to something you see in the cockpit that may be a bit out of the norm figuring it's nothing--or do you take some precautionary actions. Again, I'm not advocating flinging the cockpit door open and running and screaming down the aisle that an engine is out (or whatever the case may be), but I'm getting a vibe of complacency that frankly, bothers me.

 

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

In a way yes, but most importantly to compare it with the 9/11 incident, people directly involved with 9/11 who aren't necessarily citizens of New York are going to behave more cautiously when they see an airplane flying over just as you, having been a fire victim "upclose and personal" are going to behave more cautiously than someone who was, say. . .across the street from a fire.

Having been a victim of a fire, the next time you hear fire, are you going to panic? I think not. You have a more heightened sense of awareness if you smell smoke or hear an alarm, but for many "victims" it's not a fear/panic or paranoia. That's my only position on the matter. Yes, there are going to be those types of individuals, but I believe fear/panic/"freakin' out" is the norm nor should it be for subsequent experiences. . .a heightened sense of caution and awareness? Yes. . .panic? No.


I would admit it was poorly communicated to the public or the media, but to say it was some callous, inappropriate action in my opinion is an indicator of a naive, uninformed individual. A further believe the flyover wasn't some insensitive gesture by the government.

. . .and that's my final "shot" at the dead horse.

That's the point. The flyover WASN'T communicated to the public. The police department knew about it, but according to Ray Kelley, the NYC Police Commissioner--they were not to release the info "under penalty of law." Their hands were tied. Something similar happened a couple of years ago. I forget the details but some low flying planes (perhaps military) were going to be maneuvering over Manhattan and the public was made aware of it through news outlets. Now, did EVERYONE hear about it..no. But at least when it happened, those who didn't know were probably informed by those who did that it was nothing to be alarmed by.
Seems that Obama is pretty ticked by the whole event and vowed it won't happen again.

 

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Where am I advocating PANIC! :banghead:

This thread is just surreal. :whatever:

Darren, darling, do you want some aspirin for your headache?

 

[ready2fly]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

If you have a problem with a thread, or post, you can click the red triangle next to anyone's post and report it.... and ask that question there..... what's wrong with debate?

The point being that everyone is going around and around in circles. Everyone has made their point. It's a dead horse.

 

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

YUP, just like the religion and politics threads.

 

[ready2fly]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Not to resurrent the "dead horse," but I want to add something. I've been in several situations where fire alarms went off in hotels and rental condos. EACH time it happened, I didn't run around the room like a chicken with its head cut off (read: panic.) I calmly got dressed, grabbed my handbag and LEFT. It didn't matter to me what the PA announcement said. In some cases, it was a minute or two BEFORE any announcement was made. Sorry, but I'm not going to stand around waiting for "instructions." I've hiked my ass OUT of the room, down the stairs and into the lobby (or outside) until I was DAMNED sure everything was under control. In these situations, seconds count and wasting them waiting to hear "EVACUATE" and then be stuck evacuating with a crowd that may or may not be "panicking," is not something I care to do. I left my parents, brother and his family in a condo unit during one fire (NOT a false alarm). They were taking their sweet-ass time, brushing their teeth, combing their hair, gathering up stuff and WAITING to be told what to do. I told them to just leave everything and follow me, but when it was clear they didn't want to, I grabbed my kids and still in our pjs and barefoot, walked down 11 flights of stairs. The rest of the family eventually met up with us outside the building, but I was shocked at how nonchalant they all were. Especially shocking since most of my family is anal-rententive and follow authority to the letter. I guess human nature is weird. Again, if that makes me irrational or a chicken-you-know-what, so be it.

I'll go one further. After 9/11 I sat my kids down (who were about 8 and 10 at that point) and told them that if they were ever in a situation like that---it was perfectly fine for them to leave the premises. Remember, they were all in Catholic school and were "aware" of the authority that ran the school. I told them that I would worry about the consequences of them leaving the building under orders NOT to. I'd rather they were alive and in disciplinary trouble, then be a lemming and D-E-A-D.

**sigh** No one is calling anyone "chicken."

 

[ready2fly]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

YUP, just like the religion and politics threads.

YUP, and I advocate the closing of those threads too.

 

[Qgar]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

YUP, and I advocate the closing of those threads too.

Ya know...at least in THIS thread no one knew where anyone stood on the issue/situation. On the *yawn* religion/political ones----EVERYONE knows what EVERYONE else is going to post. Talk about an effort in futility.

 

[MFT1Air]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

YUP, just like the religion and politics threads.

:yeahthat:

 

[MFT1Air]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

That's the point. The flyover WASN'T communicated to the public. The police department knew about it, but according to Ray Kelley, the NYC Police Commissioner--they were not to release the info "under penalty of law." Their hands were tied. Something similar happened a couple of years ago. I forget the details but some low flying planes (perhaps military) were going to be maneuvering over Manhattan and the public was made aware of it through news outlets. Now, did EVERYONE hear about it..no. But at least when it happened, those who didn't know were probably informed by those who did that it was nothing to be alarmed by.
Seems that Obama is pretty ticked by the whole event and vowed it won't happen again.

I believe my own personal opinion got spun up with politics the government now having to be held accountable for the dollars spent for a perceived "stunt." You have to believe someone rationalized the desire to "close hold" the information. In retrospect, it wasn't a smart thing to do, but then I ask worse case. . .what if someone wanted to harm the "airplane" realizing the president wasn't onboard.? Perhaps security would have been less. Had they been successful in harming the plane, there could be just as much public outcry about announcing the plane's flight path to the public. Dang if you do; dang if you don't.

Again, I see a national resource, the space shuttles, fly from California to Florida after California landings. They do fly-overs as well. It's an awesome sight. Other planes fly daily. If you want to bring one down, it's kinda easy to do with a determined foe. Communication is key.

PS - They told us it was flying over.

 

[Polar742]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

:argue:anic::argue:anic::argue:anic: :banghead::yar:<---this thread


op:<----me

 

[tonyw]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Ridiculous. People need to re-cage their panic-meters.

:yeahthat:

You know, the guys at the Pentagon -- remember that New York wasn't the only city attacked on September 11 -- see low flying aircraft just a few miles away every single day from 6:00 AM until 12 midnight.

I like what this guy said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124084127590859371.html

Not everyone lost his cool. Mr. [Rubin] Shimon, the manager of the barbershop where people fled on Monday, was present for the attacks in 2001, and in fact at that time worked in a shop even closer to the World Trade Center than his current one. He watched the towers fall that day.

So did the events of Monday scare him? "To tell you the truth, not really," Mr. Shimon said. "I didn't think it was such a big deal. I'm a New Yorker."

The problem most people have with dealing with a difficult or challenging situation is that they panic. Panic means you do things just to do things instead of rationally thinking things through and logically determining the best course of action.

Mr. Shimon thought things through properly. Those who ran into his barbershop, convinced that it was September 11 all over again, did not.

And if low flying airplanes are capable of making us run around in a panic nearly eight years after September 11, the terrorists have truly won. What is their goal? To sow terror.

Well, if we're still panicking when we see low flying aircraft, they've succeeded.

 

[Ramsey]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Not to resurrent the "dead horse," but I want to add something. I've been in several situations where fire alarms went off in hotels and rental condos. EACH time it happened, I didn't run around the room like a chicken with its head cut off (read: panic.) I calmly got dressed, grabbed my handbag and LEFT. It didn't matter to me what the PA announcement said. In some cases, it was a minute or two BEFORE any announcement was made. Sorry, but I'm not going to stand around waiting for "instructions." I've hiked my ass OUT of the room, down the stairs and into the lobby (or outside) until I was DAMNED sure everything was under control. In these situations, seconds count and wasting them waiting to hear "EVACUATE" and then be stuck evacuating with a crowd that may or may not be "panicking," is not something I care to do. I left my parents, brother and his family in a condo unit during one fire (NOT a false alarm). They were taking their sweet-ass time, brushing their teeth, combing their hair, gathering up stuff and WAITING to be told what to do. I told them to just leave everything and follow me, but when it was clear they didn't want to, I grabbed my kids and still in our pjs and barefoot, walked down 11 flights of stairs. The rest of the family eventually met up with us outside the building, but I was shocked at how nonchalant they all were. Especially shocking since most of my family is anal-rententive and follow authority to the letter. I guess human nature is weird. Again, if that makes me irrational or a chicken-you-know-what, so be it.

I'll go one further. After 9/11 I sat my kids down (who were about 8 and 10 at that point) and told them that if they were ever in a situation like that---it was perfectly fine for them to leave the premises. Remember, they were all in Catholic school and were "aware" of the authority that ran the school. I told them that I would worry about the consequences of them leaving the building under orders NOT to. I'd rather they were alive and in disciplinary trouble, then be a lemming and D-E-A-D.

When I was stationed in Kuwait a few years back I used to always leave my room and go to the bunker whenever the air raid sirens went off. Not one single time did we ever get bombed. About halfway through my deployment I stopped leaving my room for the bunker every time the sirens went off. I figured if they were gonna get they would - so I'd roll over and go back to sleep.

 

[pullup]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

see low flying aircraft just a few miles away every single day from 6:00 AM until 12 midnight.


Well, if we're still panicking when we see low flying aircraft, they've succeeded.

There's a difference. NYC does not have low flying 747's coming down the corridor flanked by fighter planes, while the pentagon does have regularly scheduled routes that are flown all the time. Think if one of those planes were to veer off course and fly over the pentagon flanked by fighters that some 'panic' would ensue?

 

[derg]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

A couple notes from the peanut gallery here as I attempt to catch up on five days with skosh internet access.

Ok, it wasn't a terrorist attack. I totally understand how some people would have flashbacks, but living in a free society, we're going to see things that upset us both justifiably and unjustifiably.

Was it a lot of money? Yup, but that's money that's already spent through appropriations, anyone's that spent time as an officer in the military knows how appropriations, budgets and fiscal years go down.

Everyone loves a flyover before a baseball game, spectacular air shows at the local military base and the Blue Angels, AF1's a military jet so I presume it's not a whole lot different than the AZ ANG flying over a Dbacks game and we all know that the $0 they charge you for parking at Lemoore NAS doesn't come close to cover 12 Navy Hornets and a C-130 Hercules to put on a show for you.

People that weren't around during 9/11 are going to see things differently than people who were. We've got to respect people that freaked out, but we've also got to respect people that said, "what's that noise? An airplane..." and went about their lives.

 

[granlistillo]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Doug
As a civilian that loves the sound of jet noise as the "sound of freedom" I gotta chortle a little bit and say "what a bunch of city dwelling wussies".

As a ex active duty military officer, I have to laugh and say what a monumental screw up. The blind sided commander in chief has spoken, and careers are ended over this. Poorly staffed and executed...

 

[tonyw]

Re: President's Jet buzzes Lady Liberty; Manhattan freaks ou

Think if one of those planes were to veer off course and fly over the pentagon flanked by fighters that some 'panic' would ensue?

Dunna. And we won't get the chance to find out. I'd love to see how the DC area would have reacted if they did the flyover that was scheduled next.

Given the past history of "it's a single engine prop plane, run for your lives" that's hit the DC area, I don't think it'd be any better.

And that's pathetic.

I drove by the Pentagon twice a day for a year when they were doing the reconstruction of the destroyed wing. And you know what my reaction has been when I've seen -- no, heard, since I don't even look up low flying aircraft?

Nothing.

I think we need to be like Mr. Shimon. We need to stop panicking at the drop of a hat. Hell, man, at this rate, bin Laden doesn't have to attack us. He just has to say he's going to and we'll fall all over ourselves.