Part 91 "Reimbursement Agreement", and the legality thereof.

[derg]

Is it not legal to say where it says somethng in the books about his rights? That is what I'm getting at.

If an attorney wants to volunteer to answer the question.

Besides, I'm not sure how much guidance they're comfortable giving without crossing the line into technically being someone's legal counsel. If the forum topic bothers you guys, I'd be more than happy to dissolve it into General Topics.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

My favorite is, "I can't give you any legal advice ...but I do know someone in your area that could possibly help". That one is somewhst in here, go look. One hell of a family of BS.

what many folks don't realize is that there are rarely black and white answers to legal questions. How California law might handle a question like this might be 180 degrees from the way Arkansas might look at the exact same question. Add to that that the application of the rules is always fact specific. One might even say that the practice of law is less about knowing the answer than about knowing what questions to ask. There are a few legal questions that can be answered with a clear yes or no but most are based on assessment of risk.

There's nothing in this thread that would allow anyone who actually knows anything to answer it with any degree of confidence. Oh. Let's make that any degree if reliability.

You're not alone in disliking that reality.

 

[splash]

what many folks don't realize is that there are rarely black and white answers to legal questions. How California law might handle a question like this might be 180 degrees from the way Arkansas might look at the exact same question. Add to that that the application of the rules is always fact specific. One might even say that the practice of law is less about knowing the answer than about knowing what questions to ask. There are a few legal questions that can be answered with a clear yes or no but most are based on assessment of risk.

There's nothing in this thread that would allow anyone who actually knows anything to answer it with any degree of confidence. Oh. Let's make that any degree if reliability.

You're not alone in disliking that reality.

Thanks for leveling here, Mark. I understand I'm not alone disliking this reality. I can answer this with confidence and it is black and white. Slavery ...or what is slavery? Someone trains you to do a "job" for them. Does this means they own you till... ?

What state could look at this any differently? What company would NOT like to own it's employees and why no other companies are jumping on this wagon? What employer can make someone pay for their own job training? It's so black and white that it is laughable. I forget where I am from alot.

And this is why I believe being a lawyer is a dead career but it's designed to stay alive getting lost in language purposely. It's nothing personal andI understand people need food, clothes, and shelter...Things to do (lets not forget airplanes to fly), but I see no fair good virtues here.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Thanks for leveling here, Mark. I understand I'm not alone disliking this reality. I can answer this with confidence and it is black and white. Slavery ...or what is slavery? Someone trains you to do a "job" for them. Does this means they own you till... ?

What state could look at this any differently? What company would NOT like to own it's employees and why no other companies are jumping on this wagon? What employer can make someone pay for their own job training? It's so black and white that it is laughable. I forget where I am from alot.

And this is why I believe being a lawyer is a dead career but it's designed to stay alive getting lost in language purposely. It's nothing personal andI understand people need food, clothes, and shelter...Things to do (lets not forget airplanes to fly), but I see no fair good virtues here.

There's the basic difference. You are ready to categorize a document as "slavery" on an online forum without even so much as reading it.

And, of course, you are responsible to no one if you are wrong. Lawyers are just a bit more circumspect when they give advice to real people about real situations that affect their lives and need to be even more careful when giving out general information in public forums.

Pay for training exists, and not just in aviation. Many companies, for example, have tuition programs that require pay-back if employment is terminated within a certain period. Doesn't force anyone to stay in a job. Just to pay money back if it is left. The reason for leaving may or may not make a difference. OTOH, this particular program has been described as one that forces the employee to constantly take courses that extend the pay-back period. If accurate, that's definitely a reason to look at it sideways with a raised eyebrow. But there is still no automatic answer.

 

[splash]

There's the basic difference. You are ready to categorize a document as "slavery" on an online forum without even so much as reading it.

And, of course, you are responsible to no one if you are wrong. Lawyers are just a bit more circumspect when they give advice to real people about real situations that affect their lives and need to be even more careful when giving out general information in public forums.

Pay for training exists, and not just in aviation. Many companies, for example, have tuition programs that require pay-back if employment is terminated within a certain period. Doesn't force anyone to stay in a job. Just to pay money back if it is left. The reason for leaving may or may not make a difference. OTOH, this particular program has been described as one that forces the employee to constantly take courses that extend the pay-back period. If accurate, that's definitely a reason to look at it sideways with a raised eyebrow. But there is still no automatic answer.

This topic doesn't bother me. I call it as I see it. Furthermore, money is slavery and most talents or abilities are wasted because of it. I'm happy to agree to disagree and I know some think I'm zoomed out into outer space but I don't mind it really. I just think we can do better than what we are doing to each other. Free education stops at 12 grade basicly,,what can one do with that today? How can we improve all of our lives? It shouldn't cost us anything but thought.

Edit: Why the middle class are so few today? Ever seen the movie Caveman with Ringo Starr? I joke about a word alot but that is how I see society in a sense. The bully ...companies. Very few risk and bail outs.

 

[Flying Saluki]

I'm planning on making the situation public just as soon as I'm safely away, but word's already getting around locally. They've really s**t their bed on getting someone else in after me! or so I've been told.
As for MX issues, it's an '89 DA-10/100. MX is already the most expensive part of ownership. And generosity's on the bus outta town.

That would not seem the wisest course of action. Certainly if asked, you can share your opinion on a one-on-one basis. But if you're going to broadcast it far and wide, you could find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

Besides that, your employer did nothing wrong. This situation was brought about because you failed to exercise due diligence, not because of any illegal or immoral action on their part.

But if you absolutely cannot let this go, then be constructive about it. Become an advocate for not signing training contracts, not someone who is out for revenge.

 

[gotWXdagain]

That would not seem the wisest course of action. Certainly if asked, you can share your opinion on a one-on-one basis. But if you're going to broadcast it far and wide, you could find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

Besides that, your employer did nothing wrong. This situation was brought about because you failed to exercise due diligence, not because of any illegal or immoral action on their part.

But if you absolutely cannot let this go, then be constructive about it. Become an advocate for not signing training contracts, not someone who is out for revenge.

He could be on the wrong end of a lawsuit, but that lawsuit could also go away very quickly, if what he says is indeed true. And there's nothing wrong with helping your fellow pilots with their "due diligence."

 

[🦈💜]

That works great for you. A company would be quite miffed if you took a type rating course at company expense then walked away a week after completing.

Then that company should invest money in creating an environment where people will want to stay.

"Employee retention" is very important, yes, but should be done in an above-board, positive kind of way.

-Fox

 

[🦈💜]

Although just about every 135 shop is requiring them these days. So best advice is make sure you have "good faith" protections, such as a loss of medical, or not letting the company enforce it should you be terminated without cause (layoff, furlough)

The problem with this is that, even with "good faith"* protections, it creates a barrier to ... well, leaving. And leaving is one of the few remedies an employee has against hostile, dangerous or shady work environments.

If a company wants to retain an expensive resource, positive methods (salary, benefits, options, retention bonuses, etc) are the standard "cost of doing business."

If a company can't afford to operate legally, safely, and above-board, then the company shouldn't be operating, let alone in a safety-critical industry.

Period.

-Fox
* - Don't get me started on the concept of "good faith" anything in business... especially a business as sleazy as aviation!

 

[🦈💜]

Your "experience" must be rather limited. We are fast approaching the $100K type rating. So, for a $180K FO, we are in it for a first year cost of $280K give or take. That's more than our senior executives make.

First, so what? Your senior executives most likely can't fly the airplane, so you need pilots. Training them to operate the airplane is something that's you need to do so that they can.. well, fly the airplane. And flying the airplane is the whole point, is it not?

A hierarchical salary structure isn't exactly fundamental to having a business, you know, perception to the contrary.

Second, oh yeah ... but wait... the type rating isn't pay. Nor is buying computers for your staff, or chairs, or desks. Nor sending your storage admin off for $50k worth of training on the new storage system you're purchasing, nor, apparently, sending your executives around the world in expensive-ass bizjets rather than having them travel Lowest Logical Fare.

Third, you're comparing your senior executives' annual salary to an arbitrary figure relating to the total cost of having a pilot in their first year, which is smurfed.

-Fox

 

[hook_dupin]

Then that company should invest money in creating an environment where people will want to stay.

"Employee retention" is very important, yes, but should be done in an above-board, positive kind of way.

-Fox

Are you suggesting that a pilot wouldn't screw an organization if a better offer came around, regardless of whatever culture the organization creates?

This notion doesn't fit my experience with people...

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Upon my exit interview at my last employer:

"We invested over 70K in you."

Falcon 900 initial and expenses and one recurrent and somehow they spent 70k on my training? Also um, the insurance requires that training because the 16 million dollar purchase price 3 engine jet I point in the correct direction for you requires it. It isn't like they helped me get a masters degree in finance and wanted me to work for 2 years. The guy with hundreds of millions of dollars who said this to me did so because we had run into a snag. He needed me to continue working for him, but didn't want to give me time off for the birth of my first child.

Now I have heard of guys burning employers and taking someone for a ride and walking away with 70k in training. Then I wonder, was it just some guy that wanted time off for the birth of his first kid?

 

[Itchy]

To have you in debt for initial is certainly common. Recurrent/ yearly is on them. It is a cost of doing business. While I am certainly no lawyer, I doubt they would have any case. However, if they tried, it will still cost you proving that they have no case.

So they expect you to stay there until you are 70? Or you have to quit after the year is up, before they send you back to the sim? What would the exit plan be? I would not want people working for me that categorically hated me, but that's just me. Flat spotted tires, over temped engines, excessive fuel burns, seeking the most expensive FBO's, all add up.

 

[Fireflights]

So they expect you to stay there until you are 70? Or you have to quit after the year is up, before they send you back to the sim? What would the exit plan be? I would not want people working for me that categorically hated me, but that's just me. Flat spotted tires, over temped engines, excessive fuel burns, seeking the most expensive FBO's, all add up.

I'm pretty sure their strategy is "get something back" when someone leaves. They're definitely not doing anything to make this a great place to be long term, as @Acrofox outlined above. They've had crazy turnover numbers (10 in the last 8 years) and I'm sure they're tired of buying types, but the dept. manager's strategy of "trap with the agreement, and act injured/get pissed when someone complains/disagrees/requests improvements" doesn't really incline people to stay there.
Technically, I could quit and be clear of all obligations after March 25th, as long as they don't schedule recurrency prior to that date. The problem would be having a new job waiting on that narrow window of opportunity.
For now, the plan is to find somewhere else to fly and attempt negotiating the exit payoff. Prorating the balance is the opening stance, seeing as how that's industry standard. If they won't negotiate, I guess I'll be making payments for a while. They're realizing that their reputation in the area is falling rapidly, (not through any direct action of mine, but the situation did get publicized when I had to back out of the new job) and I believe that's made them panicky about being able to find a replacement. I've had several comments directed my way about "how it's a good thing you stayed, I can't get anyone to even to talk to me about flying here full time."

 

[Itchy]

I'm pretty sure their strategy is "get something back" when someone leaves. They're definitely not doing anything to make this a great place to be long term, as @Acrofox outlined above. They've had crazy turnover numbers (10 in the last 8 years) and I'm sure they're tired of buying types, but the dept. manager's strategy of "trap with the agreement, and act injured/get pissed when someone complains/disagrees/requests improvements" doesn't really incline people to stay there.
Technically, I could quit and be clear of all obligations after March 25th, as long as they don't schedule recurrency prior to that date. The problem would be having a new job waiting on that narrow window of opportunity.
For now, the plan is to find somewhere else to fly and attempt negotiating the exit payoff. Prorating the balance is the opening stance, seeing as how that's industry standard. If they won't negotiate, I guess I'll be making payments for a while. They're realizing that their reputation in the area is falling rapidly, (not through any direct action of mine, but the situation did get publicized when I had to back out of the new job) and I believe that's made them panicky about being able to find a replacement. I've had several comments directed my way about "how it's a good thing you stayed, I can't get anyone to even to talk to me about flying here full time."

I've not heard of *anyone* actually collecting on these things. And I know of quite a few who walked off without paying. Now, what it says on their pria - "not suitable for rehire" or verbiage close to that, is another thing.

 

[NickH]

I've not heard of *anyone* actually collecting on these things. And I know of quite a few who walked off without paying. Now, what it says on their pria - "not suitable for rehire" or verbiage close to that, is another thing.

But I've only ever heard of one instance of a negative reference from a 135 being given any value at all. And that was on this forum. Today.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

When I was hired at my current job in Dec 2013, I signed a document that outlines the terms of type school repayment. This being my first corporate job, I didn't know much about training agreements other than that they were usually for the initial type, prorated over a year or two.

The text of the agreement reads:

"In recognition of this expenditure by Employer, the undersigned hereby agrees that in the event he resigns his job with Employer within the twelve months immediately following said training, he will fully reimburse Employer for the full cost of said training."

In retrospect, it's kinda harsh to require the full cost, but the real problem is in the next paragraph:

"In the event that further training or certification is mandated or deemed necessary by either regulation of the FAA or the private insurance carriers of Employer, the same reimbursement obligation will extend for the twelve months immediately following such training or certification."

Here's where the catch comes in. As I found out when I gave my notice last month, they consider our annual recurrency at FSI to be covered by that paragraph. I had to withdraw my acceptance at the new job because of this situation, and it was a much better offer than where I am now.
So, in their opinion, I can't quit without repaying the entire cost of recurrency, even if my last day is 11 months and 28 days from the end of class.

My opinion is that this is basically indentured servitude, but I can't really take the chance of going to court because this is my current job. I'd probably get fired and sued on the same day if I fight them.
Likewise, I can't really afford to pay the cost of recurrent training in order to avoid being sued.

Edit to add: this isn't a promissory note, there is no repayment outline listed, mine is the only signature on the paper, it wasn't notarized, and the guy who left before me simply paid what they wanted and bailed, so it's legally untested, as far as I know.

Any legal or "hey, I've been there!" perspectives would be greatly appreciated.

FF

Welcome to the nascent re-emergence of indentured servitude...
Yeah, I was there... once... My advice/$0.02 - don't sign these things and politely but firmly and concisely tell prospective employers why you won't. It's the only way this will stop.
Think about it. You're a skilled machinist. Your employer buys a new machine tool which requires specialized training. You are not going to be asked to sign a training contract. It's a cost of doing business. But because - pilots - and shiny jet syndrome - and "i need hours" - we have allowed ourselves to fall victim to training contracts.
That said, if you say you are going to stay around for a certain amount of time, honor your word and commitment. Employers are probably rightfully worried about unscrupulous, selfish career climbers taking advantage of them.

As to "enforceability", sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on State, specific verbiage, jurisdiction dictated in the contract, specific circumstances surrounding any "breach", etc, etc.
At the end of the day, if you sign something, you are declaring that you will honor it. So you should. Does this mean you should sign it in the first place? That depends on what you are signing. In the case of training contracts, I would argue no.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

FO at $180? Where do I sign up??

Seriously, to the OP, based on your post, they have you by the .....well, you get it. The company has left you no choice but to remain an employee until you retire or until you save up enough money to leave. They literally OWN YOU for the rest of your flying career. An attorney is key but you don't want the reputation of suing employers either (especially if your current one knows all the players in the area). Tough situation....

Agree that you should post the name so other can/will avoid.

OR you could write up EVERY maintenance issue that you find and don't be generous!

Meh, just put off your recurrent for a month, get outside the 12 month window, then quit... I suppose. When we create an environment of silly contractual games engendered by fear and a lack of trust, this is what we get, more and more silly games. As is everywhere seen, "you can't legislate morality and honor."

 

[Fireflights]

Update:
I've accepted a new job and given notice at the shop that we've been discussing.
When I spoke with the owner he didn't mention the repayment at all, we settled the next few weeks schedule and parted with a handshake. We have discussed training agreements in general since I started this thread, and I'm hoping (perhaps naively) that it'll not be an issue this time around.

We'll see. I'll keep y'all updated.

 

[NickH]

Update:
I've accepted a new job and given notice at the shop that we've been discussing.
When I spoke with the owner he didn't mention the repayment at all, we settled the next few weeks schedule and parted with a handshake. We have discussed training agreements in general since I started this thread, and I'm hoping (perhaps naively) that it'll not be an issue this time around.

We'll see. I'll keep y'all updated.

Congratulations on the new job!

If you do hear something, let us know. We love updates!

If sued, do not ignore it!

And, while I'm not going to provide legal advice, and anyone who has read anything I've posted knows how worthless my comments are, feel free to pm if you have questions on the process.