Oh United (tail strike version)

[BobDDuck]

How easy is it to thunk the tail on takeoff in a 757-300?

UA372 (UAL372) United Flight Tracking and History 03-May-2023 (PHNL-PHNL) - FlightAware

Track United (UA) #372 flight from Daniel K Inouye Intl to Daniel K Inouye Intl

flightaware.com

 

[ASpilot2be]

I would imagine you look at it funny and it hits the tail.

 

[bike21]

Nice & easy rotation was always briefed when I flew it, guess these folks got to see how well the tail skid worked.

 

[Kingairer]

I would think the 767-400 would be prone to this as well but just a visual guess.

 

[Baronman]

How easy is it to thunk the tail on takeoff in a 757-300?

UA372 (UAL372) United Flight Tracking and History 03-May-2023 (PHNL-PHNL) - FlightAware

Track United (UA) #372 flight from Daniel K Inouye Intl to Daniel K Inouye Intl

flightaware.com

Probably very easy.

How easy is it to avoid a tail strike on rotation. Also very easy.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

As experience levels drop, we’re gonna see more of this kinda stuff. Not a slight against United, my comment is for the industry in general.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Pass rates on pilot practical tests trend down — General Aviation News

The pass rates on practical tests for the initial issuing of pilot certificates, specifically private pilot, commercial pilot, and flight instructor certificates, went down in 2022 for the first time in the past few years. What's behind the decline and how can it be reversed?

generalaviationnews.com

 

[mikecweb]

yawn

 

[amorris311]

As experience levels drop, we’re gonna see more of this kinda stuff. Not a slight against United, my comment is for the industry in general.

Are you suggesting this crew was inexperienced? Or is this a broad bush comment that you feel is appropriate here?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Are you suggesting this crew was inexperienced? Or is this a broad bush comment that you feel is appropriate here?

No idea about this crew. Just in general, a broad(er) brush, and not any one particular airline.

 

[DPApilot]

As experience levels drop, we’re gonna see more of this kinda stuff. Not a slight against United, my comment is for the industry in general.

Yawn.

 

[CFI A&P]

No idea about this crew. Just in general, a broad(er) brush, and not any one particular airline.

Enlighten us wise one… what was your experience level when you started your first 121 job? Use any metric you’d like: total time, jet time, years of flying experience….

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Enlighten us wise one… what was your experience level when you started your first 121 job? Use any metric you’d like: total time, jet time, years of flying experience….

Years isn’t fair because my training was spread out over summers. The realistic answer is I was a wet commercial to RJ. At least I brought a clean training record, good attitude, and a cautious approach to the whole thing. I knew one guy who came through the same program, got 100 hrs IOE before finally being let go. Now you have people that may be low time AND they suck as pilots. That’s a bad combo. If we’re gonna do low time, then do it right (eg, Lufthansa style).

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

yawn

Oh hi. Remember when you flipped out when I wrote green-on-green for the UA 777 out of OGG?

Well here you go:

“The flight crew, according to multiple people familiar with the incident, had been on a multi-day trip together and both were new to the 777. The captain, who was the pilot flying, is a veteran of the airline and had recently shifted to a captain position on the 777, upgrading from the company’s Airbus single-aisle fleet. The first officer was new to both the airline and the 777, having joined the company from Hawaiian Airlines.”

 

[///AMG]

As experience levels drop, we’re gonna see more of this kinda stuff. Not a slight against United, my comment is for the industry in general.

What are your thoughts on rotation in the "long body" 73's? My opinion is that the book answer is good and guarantees consistent climb performance that meets or exceeds assumptions/requirements. That being said, if anything is wrong (such as the V speeds), and you try to keep that rotation rate before the wing is ready to fly, you're probably gonna hit the tail.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Our shop has changed the green-on-green requirements that at least one pilot must have 75 hrs in type to one pilot must have 150 hrs in type, when paired together.

I don’t think (?) anything happened here, I assume it’s a preemptive strike.

I think we’d be delusional to think airlines don’t see this as a problem coming up. It absolutely will be an issue. We are in unprecedented times.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

What are your thoughts on rotation in the "long body" 73's? My opinion is that the book answer is good and guarantees consistent climb performance that meets or exceeds assumptions/requirements. That being said, if anything is wrong (such as the V speeds), and you try to keep that rotation rate before the wing is ready to fly, you're probably gonna hit the tail.

2 deg / second is fine. A full 7.5 seconds to 15 deg nose up. It’s a (relatively) slow process, no point rushing it. If you initially pull hard, I’m gonna see the tail strike cue start to come down on my HUD and then my hands go to guard the yoke coming back (fast) more.

if V speeds are incorrect, then yes you run the risk of a tailstrike. That’s where (IMO) common knowledge should kick in. Have a mental model for what V speeds should look on a short flight 2-3 hrs versus a longer 5+ hr transcon.

 

[luke3]

Looking at the body contact chart you hit the tailskid on the 757-300 at just over 8 degrees of pitch. Surprisingly it's about the same as the 767-400 and the 767-300 is more critical at exactly 8 degrees. Probably because of the slightly different landing gear geometry on the 767-400 to mitigate issues with the stretch.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily easy to do but a definite possibility if you're not careful. On the 76 you're naturally more careful because of the increased control sensitivity but I can see it happening if you yank the -300 the same way you would a -200 since it has the same control feel, especially if you're heavy where it starts eating runway surprisingly fast compared to a -200. Besides briefing the threat we mitigate it at our shop by only taking off Flaps 15 or 20 in the -300, not sure what United does.

 

[CFI A&P]

Years isn’t fair because my training was spread out over summers. The realistic answer is I was a wet commercial to RJ. At least I brought a clean training record, good attitude, and a cautious approach to the whole thing. I knew one guy who came through the same program, got 100 hrs IOE before finally being let go. Now you have people that may be low time AND they suck as pilots. That’s a bad combo. If we’re gonna do low time, then do it right (eg, Lufthansa style).

In summary, you had about 250 hours, no turbine time and a fresh commercial - nothing close to the ATP & 1,000 turbine. Yet earlier in this thread you assert that inexperience is the reason for "more of this kinda stuff". Do you have access to the FOQA & ASAP data, and already know the crew composition and training history ?

As experience levels drop, we’re gonna see more of this kinda stuff. Not a slight against United, my comment is for the industry in general.

Currently United requirements are higher than when you entered the industry. By regulation, even RJ operators have higher requirements than when you started.

 

[DPApilot]

Years isn’t fair because my training was spread out over summers. The realistic answer is I was a wet commercial to RJ. At least I brought a clean training record, good attitude, and a cautious approach to the whole thing. I knew one guy who came through the same program, got 100 hrs IOE before finally being let go. Now you have people that may be low time AND they suck as pilots. That’s a bad combo. If we’re gonna do low time, then do it right (eg, Lufthansa style).

So you did it the wrong way by your own accord?