121 guys, how does this happen? (AKA,Oh Delta)

T/O w/FSII

T/O w/FSII

Well-Known Member
I just can’t see a scenario in which leadership drops the ball this hard. Can you 121 guys explain to this 135 Gulfstream driver how this happens? Would love some insight before I bail for the 121 world.

TLDR. 4 hours on a hot plane in Vegas with “no AC” resulting in multiple paxs and a FA leaving on a stretcher.

I’m seeing it as a 757. I wonder what combination of MEL’s this plane had. And if so, would you have accepted the flight?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifest...ut-awaiting-takeoff-triple-digit-temperatures
 
On my Captain OE I entered a baking hot aircraft at 5AM. The outside air heat had been hooked up overnight and the plane could only be described as extremely uncomfortable. Every flight attendant asked me to do something about the heat. Here I am the guy with four stripes and I ask the LCA sitting in the cockpit with both windows open to start the APU. "No" he says. "Lets have them hook up the outside air." So he calls ops and 20 minutes later there still isn't outside air. Meanwhile during my FA briefing I'm basically just apologizing and saying look I'm really sorry. The LCA won't let me turn the AC on. Me, the guy with 4 stripes. Completely useless and my crew is miserable. Finally I just get tired of it and insist on starting the APU. "No". I explain that all 4 flight attendants are super uncomfortable and we are about to start boarding. "Flight attendant comfort does not matter." I nearly lost it.

So then I ask. If the flight attendants are human and they are uncomfortable, does it mean the passengers who are human will also be uncomfortable? Or is there something else that I am missing?

At that point he finally let me start the APU.

This is probably my biggest pain point being a former corporate pilot and being at a 121 carrier. It doesn't help that somehow our pilot group has institutionalized making other human beings miserable. After OE it seems like it is poorly managed by the training department. It's a top down training thing. I don't get it and I never will. I'm just sorry that is all.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
On my Captain OE I entered a baking hot aircraft at 5AM. The outside air heat had been hooked up overnight and the plane could only be described as extremely uncomfortable. Every flight attendant asked me to do something about the heat. Here I am the guy with four stripes and I ask the LCA sitting in the cockpit with both windows open to start the APU. "No" he says. "Lets have them hook up the outside air." So he calls ops and 20 minutes later there still isn't outside air. Meanwhile during my FA briefing I'm basically just apologizing and saying look I'm really sorry. The LCA won't let me turn the AC on. Me, the guy with 4 stripes. Completely useless and my crew is miserable. Finally I just get tired of it and insist on starting the APU. "No". I explain that all 4 flight attendants are super uncomfortable and we are about to start boarding. "Flight attendant comfort does not matter." I nearly lost it.

So then I ask. If the flight attendants are human and they are uncomfortable, does it mean the passengers who are human will also be uncomfortable? Or is there something else that I am missing?

At that point he finally let me start the APU.

This is probably my biggest pain point being a former corporate pilot and being at a 121 carrier. It doesn't help that somehow our pilot group has institutionalized making other human beings miserable. After OE it seems like it is poorly managed by the training department. It's a top down training thing. I don't get it and I never will. I'm just sorry that is all.
Click to expand...

Wow. That LCA is an absolute moron. That seems worthy of a pro standards intervention, and perhaps even the training dept. I’ve never even heard of such a thing happening like that for Captain OE.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
On my Captain OE I entered a baking hot aircraft at 5AM. The outside air heat had been hooked up overnight and the plane could only be described as extremely uncomfortable. Every flight attendant asked me to do something about the heat. Here I am the guy with four stripes and I ask the LCA sitting in the cockpit with both windows open to start the APU. "No" he says. "Lets have them hook up the outside air." So he calls ops and 20 minutes later there still isn't outside air. Meanwhile during my FA briefing I'm basically just apologizing and saying look I'm really sorry. The LCA won't let me turn the AC on. Me, the guy with 4 stripes. Completely useless and my crew is miserable. Finally I just get tired of it and insist on starting the APU. "No". I explain that all 4 flight attendants are super uncomfortable and we are about to start boarding. "Flight attendant comfort does not matter." I nearly lost it.

So then I ask. If the flight attendants are human and they are uncomfortable, does it mean the passengers who are human will also be uncomfortable? Or is there something else that I am missing?

At that point he finally let me start the APU.

This is probably my biggest pain point being a former corporate pilot and being at a 121 carrier. It doesn't help that somehow our pilot group has institutionalized making other human beings miserable. After OE it seems like it is poorly managed by the training department. It's a top down training thing. I don't get it and I never will. I'm just sorry that is all.
Click to expand...

It really seems like the same thing here if you read between the lines, or a newly upgraded guy with no command experience.
 
T/O w/FSII said:
I just can’t see a scenario in which leadership drops the ball this hard. Can you 121 guys explain to this 135 Gulfstream driver how this happens? Would love some insight before I bail for the 121 world.

TLDR. 4 hours on a hot plane in Vegas with “no AC” resulting in multiple paxs and a FA leaving on a stretcher.

I’m seeing it as a 757. I wonder what combination of MEL’s this plane had. And if so, would you have accepted the flight?

Passengers aboard Las Vegas flight pass out while awaiting takeoff in triple-digit temperatures
Click to expand...
Lots of mission hacker captains floating around.
 
CoffeeIcePapers said:
Lots of mission hacker captains floating around.
Click to expand...

Yep. Way too many of them at FedEx.

We have guys here that are totally cool with sleeping on the literal floor in OAK ops during a night hub turn. All because FedEx has some half ass excuse about not being able to get proper crew rest rooms because it’s too hard to get the construction done.

I can’t wait for my turn, that’s an easy fatigue call.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
On my Captain OE I entered a baking hot aircraft at 5AM. The outside air heat had been hooked up overnight and the plane could only be described as extremely uncomfortable. Every flight attendant asked me to do something about the heat. Here I am the guy with four stripes and I ask the LCA sitting in the cockpit with both windows open to start the APU. "No" he says. "Lets have them hook up the outside air." So he calls ops and 20 minutes later there still isn't outside air. Meanwhile during my FA briefing I'm basically just apologizing and saying look I'm really sorry. The LCA won't let me turn the AC on. Me, the guy with 4 stripes. Completely useless and my crew is miserable. Finally I just get tired of it and insist on starting the APU. "No". I explain that all 4 flight attendants are super uncomfortable and we are about to start boarding. "Flight attendant comfort does not matter." I nearly lost it.

So then I ask. If the flight attendants are human and they are uncomfortable, does it mean the passengers who are human will also be uncomfortable? Or is there something else that I am missing?

At that point he finally let me start the APU.

This is probably my biggest pain point being a former corporate pilot and being at a 121 carrier. It doesn't help that somehow our pilot group has institutionalized making other human beings miserable. After OE it seems like it is poorly managed by the training department. It's a top down training thing. I don't get it and I never will. I'm just sorry that is all.
Click to expand...
Wow. I’ve heard of some APU heroes before but that takes the prize.
 
T/O w/FSII said:
I just can’t see a scenario in which leadership drops the ball this hard. Can you 121 guys explain to this 135 Gulfstream driver how this happens? Would love some insight before I bail for the 121 world.

TLDR. 4 hours on a hot plane in Vegas with “no AC” resulting in multiple paxs and a FA leaving on a stretcher.

I’m seeing it as a 757. I wonder what combination of MEL’s this plane had. And if so, would you have accepted the flight?

Passengers aboard Las Vegas flight pass out while awaiting takeoff in triple-digit temperatures
Click to expand...

SurferLucas said:
It’s not acceptable.

No APU in those temps, on my plane = me getting off the plane.

That’s not the experience they paid for.
Click to expand...

If the reporting is accurate, this is far more than uncomfortable too… 20 minutes is too long IMO… But 4 hours? Was there a captain on board?
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
On my Captain OE I entered a baking hot aircraft at 5AM. The outside air heat had been hooked up overnight and the plane could only be described as extremely uncomfortable. Every flight attendant asked me to do something about the heat. Here I am the guy with four stripes and I ask the LCA sitting in the cockpit with both windows open to start the APU. "No" he says. "Lets have them hook up the outside air." So he calls ops and 20 minutes later there still isn't outside air. Meanwhile during my FA briefing I'm basically just apologizing and saying look I'm really sorry. The LCA won't let me turn the AC on. Me, the guy with 4 stripes. Completely useless and my crew is miserable. Finally I just get tired of it and insist on starting the APU. "No". I explain that all 4 flight attendants are super uncomfortable and we are about to start boarding. "Flight attendant comfort does not matter." I nearly lost it.

So then I ask. If the flight attendants are human and they are uncomfortable, does it mean the passengers who are human will also be uncomfortable? Or is there something else that I am missing?

At that point he finally let me start the APU.

This is probably my biggest pain point being a former corporate pilot and being at a 121 carrier. It doesn't help that somehow our pilot group has institutionalized making other human beings miserable. After OE it seems like it is poorly managed by the training department. It's a top down training thing. I don't get it and I never will. I'm just sorry that is all.
Click to expand...

Not familiar with 121 ops, so I ask:

If you, as captain, decide to turn on the APU, then could the LCA "overrule" you, or is he only there to observe? Who has the authority for the flight?

On my (135) side of things, if I'm the captain of record, then I'm the GD Captain and even if the DO is sitting right seat I'm making the decisions. If he wants to be PIC we can change the release to reflect that and I'll sit over there ----> and talk on the radio.

Fix
 
Fixtur said:
Not familiar with 121 ops, so I ask:

If you, as captain, decide to turn on the APU, then could the LCA "overrule" you, or is he only there to observe? Who has the authority for the flight?

On my (135) side of things, if I'm the captain of record, then I'm the GD Captain and even if the DO is sitting right seat I'm making the decisions. If he wants to be PIC we can change the release to reflect that and I'll sit over there ----> and talk on the radio.

Fix
Click to expand...

I’ve done several different CA IOE events across two different airlines, and it’s always been the case of “It’s your show to run”, with perhaps some debriefing items on stuff like that.

I have never in my life heard of anyone being overruled by an LCA for anything outside of perhaps a safety issue.
 
Fixtur said:
Not familiar with 121 ops, so I ask:

If you, as captain, decide to turn on the APU, then could the LCA "overrule" you, or is he only there to observe? Who has the authority for the flight?

On my (135) side of things, if I'm the captain of record, then I'm the GD Captain and even if the DO is sitting right seat I'm making the decisions. If he wants to be PIC we can change the release to reflect that and I'll sit over there ----> and talk on the radio.

Fix
Click to expand...

The LCA is the PIC and is signing for the aircraft.
 
This just sounds like bad leadership. I wonder if the FO said anything. Sometimes you just can’t complete the “mission” and sometimes that’s what’s needed to get the attention of management or whoever thought it was a good idea to send an airplane with no APU to Vegas with this kind of heat. At 9E we had a temp cut off for boarding and having pax on the airplane. Iirc it was 30c.
 
I made the mistake on the CRJ once of accepting a plane with no APU in 100º weather. It was only supposed to be a 15 minute taxi but it turned into a 30 minute taxi and we were baking. I think I pushed the N1s up to 50% to get some airflow. Learned my lesson there. Being out there for 3-4 hours with multiple medical emergencies just seems like a whole series of errors. But we all know every airline just wants you gone by D-0 nomatter what. Defer the APU, defer the packs, just go, go, go. The only one who can make the safe call there is the captain and now the airline is "investigating" and they and everyone else are going to be fault the captain. That's why the longer you're in this industry the more conservative your decisions get (generally).
 
thevideographer said:
I made the mistake on the CRJ once of accepting a plane with no APU in 100º weather. It was only supposed to be a 15 minute taxi but it turned into a 30 minute taxi and we were baking. I think I pushed the N1s up to 50% to get some airflow. Learned my lesson there. Being out there for 3-4 hours with multiple medical emergencies just seems like a whole series of errors. But we all know every airline just wants you gone by D-0 nomatter what. Defer the APU, defer the packs, just go, go, go. The only one who can make the safe call there is the captain and now the airline is "investigating" and they and everyone else are going to be fault the captain. That's why the longer you're in this industry the more conservative your decisions get (generally).
Click to expand...

Say it louder for the people in the back!
 
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