New 121 Pilots you think you have it bad now?

Trip7

Well-Known Member
Was chatting with a 10 yr Delta 765 FO at the doctor's office because we were both getting our medicals done. He was a former ASA guy and was asking me how it was and how I liked it.

Told him it was great just looking forward to the pay raise in a couple months but that 23/hr is better than 19/hr due to the new contract. Then he said he made $2000 his first year at ASA. Back then they had to pay 10 grand up front for training and he made 12 grand his first year (1993). And these are guys that got hired with THOUSANDS of hours of training.

These days we get paid training and paid hotels. Something unheard of in the past for regionals. Maybe next shortage we'll get free food:)

Just food for thought next time you're thinking of whining about something:D
 

JoelT

Well-Known Member
Was chatting with a 10 yr Delta 765 FO at the doctor's office because we were both getting our medicals done. He was a former ASA guy and was asking me how it was and how I liked it.

Told him it was great just looking forward to the pay raise in a couple months but that 23/hr is better than 19/hr due to the new contract. Then he said he made $2000 his first year at ASA. Back then they had to pay 10 grand up front for training and he made 12 grand his first year (1993). And these are guys that got hired with THOUSANDS of hours of training.

These days we get paid training and paid hotels. Something unheard of in the past for regionals. Maybe next shortage we'll get free food:)

Just food for thought next time you're thinking of whining about something:D
That's the way it was at most places up until about 2001.
 

JaceTheAce

Well-Known Member
Was chatting with a 10 yr Delta 765 FO at the doctor's office because we were both getting our medicals done. He was a former ASA guy and was asking me how it was and how I liked it.

Told him it was great just looking forward to the pay raise in a couple months but that 23/hr is better than 19/hr due to the new contract. Then he said he made $2000 his first year at ASA. Back then they had to pay 10 grand up front for training and he made 12 grand his first year (1993). And these are guys that got hired with THOUSANDS of hours of training.

These days we get paid training and paid hotels. Something unheard of in the past for regionals. Maybe next shortage we'll get free food:)

Just food for thought next time you're thinking of whining about something:D
Your statement doesn't hold as much credibility since... $12,000 was a lot more money back then compared to today's dollars.

Have you heard of the word inflation?

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' "adjusted for inflation" calculator (http://www.bls.gov/bls/inflation.htm), $12,000 in 1993 is about $18,171.49 in today's dollars. The current first-year FO pay at ASA is $20,700 at minimum guarantee - not much of a difference from the $18,171.49, adjusted for inflation, in 1993.

Now, the PFT crap that went on - that indeed shows a difference in "how we have it" now.

But does your statement provide reason to stop whining about our current pay and QOL situation working as a pilot for a regional airline? NO. We are here to establish better working conditions through the help of strong organized pilots, labor unions, and improved labor laws. It is not about complaining - it is about working to improve the quality of our lives. Therefore, I completely disagree with your "food for thought" when we are "whining" and "complaining" about getting treated like crap from airline management.

I apologize in advance if I took your thread the wrong way - I am taking it as an offense when still to this day our working conditions are indeed poor and where considerable improvement in the job is well past due.
 

greaper007

Well-Known Member
777, IMHO, just because past conditions were even more horrible doesn't mean that we should accept our still lower position in the economic world. Most of us come to a regional with at least a 4 year degree and maybe a thousand or so hours of flight time. Minus the flight time with a four year degree most people can get a job in the business world in the low 30s. That's without the additional money we spend on training. There's absolutely no reason why we should be treated lesser than someone that works the "IT Help Desk" at a Fortune 500 Company.

Frankly, there's an unequal distribution of wealth in most of the airline world. I'd say probably the only carriers that isn't true for are FedEx, UPS, and SWA. Using an adjustment for inflation for the last year of regulation. First year FO's at a major made 95,000. Senior Capt's made over a million. This is based on Guarantee alone.
 

AMH

Well-Known Member
777, IMHO, just because past conditions were even more horrible doesn't mean that we should accept our still lower position in the economic world. Most of us come to a regional with at least a 4 year degree and maybe a thousand or so hours of flight time. Minus the flight time with a four year degree most people can get a job in the business world in the low 30s. That's without the additional money we spend on training. There's absolutely no reason why we should be treated lesser than someone that works the "IT Help Desk" at a Fortune 500 Company.

Frankly, there's an unequal distribution of wealth in most of the airline world. I'd say probably the only carriers that isn't true for are FedEx, UPS, and SWA. Using an adjustment for inflation for the last year of regulation. First year FO's at a major made 95,000. Senior Capt's made over a million. This is based on Guarantee alone.
:yeahthat:

When I was in high school minimum wage was only $5.15. Now it's $6.55!!!!
These kids today don't even know how great they have it! :sarcasm:
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
Your statement doesn't hold as much credibility since... $12,000 was a lot more money back then compared to today's dollars.

Have you heard of the word inflation?

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' "adjusted for inflation" calculator (http://www.bls.gov/bls/inflation.htm), $12,000 in 1993 is about $18,171.49 in today's dollars. The current first-year FO pay at ASA is $20,700 at minimum guarantee - not much of a difference from the $18,171.49, adjusted for inflation, in 1993.

Now, the PFT crap that went on - that indeed shows a difference in "how we have it" now.

But does your statement provide reason to stop whining about our current pay and QOL situation working as a pilot for a regional airline? NO. We are here to establish better working conditions through the help of strong organized pilots, labor unions, and improved labor laws. It is not about complaining - it is about working to improve the quality of our lives. Therefore, I completely disagree with your "food for thought" when we are "whining" and "complaining" about getting treated like crap from airline management.

I apologize in advance if I took your thread the wrong way - I am taking it as an offense when still to this day our working conditions are indeed poor and where considerable improvement in the job is well past due.
If you were in 1993 you wouldn't have a 121 job right now. You would be instructing for 7.00 bucks an hr if you could even find an instructing job. Couple thousand hours of doing that then you would be doing 135 cargo or corporate for another thousand hours or more. With all that experience under your belt you'd finally qualify for a regional job where in todays dollars you'd be asked to pay around 14 grand to start even with your 3000TT+ experience.

Fast forward to today and you have a job with a wet commercial:D Im not completely satisfied with what we got, but I know its so bad to the point that the whiners are making it seem to be.
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
If you were in 1993 you wouldn't have a 121 job right now. You would be instructing for 7.00 bucks an hr if you could even find an instructing job. Couple thousand hours of doing that then you would be doing 135 cargo or corporate for another thousand hours or more. With all that experience under your belt you'd finally qualify for a regional job where in todays dollars you'd be asked to pay around 14 grand to start even with your 3000TT+ experience.

Fast forward to today and you have a job with a wet commercial:D Im not completely satisfied with what we got, but I know its so bad to the point that the whiners are making it seem to be.
I honestly admire your enthusiasm and half glass full approach to this career. But please be respectful and use some tact when talking about the past, present, and the future of aviation. You can't compare the past to now. Back in the 90's gas was still affordable, housing wasn't through the roof (except on the coasts, NYC), college was still available to many without loans, flying was cheap, etc. Variables are constantly changing so you can't compare spending 10K on training to know. With the cost of living combined with the low wages, pilots are still paying for their own training, it's just not an upfront cost.

In my opinion, I feel you're bringing down the profession with your "I'm just happy to have a job" mentality. This is a career, not a hobby. Pilots are supporting wives, children, parents, <insert other reasons here>, etc. Think about that while you're still living at home with your parents.
 

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
If you were in 1993 you wouldn't have a 121 job right now. You would be instructing for 7.00 bucks an hr if you could even find an instructing job. Couple thousand hours of doing that then you would be doing 135 cargo or corporate for another thousand hours or more. With all that experience under your belt you'd finally qualify for a regional job where in todays dollars you'd be asked to pay around 14 grand to start even with your 3000TT+ experience.

Fast forward to today and you have a job with a wet commercial:D Im not completely satisfied with what we got, but I know its so bad to the point that the whiners are making it seem to be.
Point proven.

You'll take just about anything you can/did get.

You continue to make yourself look like a total fool.
 

JoelT

Well-Known Member
Frankly, there's an unequal distribution of wealth in most of the airline world. I'd say probably the only carriers that isn't true for are FedEx, UPS, and SWA. Using an adjustment for inflation for the last year of regulation. First year FO's at a major made 95,000. Senior Capt's made over a million. This is based on Guarantee alone.
Are you high? My dad was a first year airline pilot at Delta in 1978 just before deregulation. He made $400 a month as salary, not flight time. Adjusted for inflation that equals $16000 first year. I remember we were on food stamps for the first few years.

And, senior captains (close to retirement) made between $300,000 and $500,000 adjusted for inflation during that time period. Nothing to sneeze at and I hope we can reattain something along those lines. But, it is a far cry from over a million.
 

IrishSheepdog

Sitting in the median
Back in 1993 jets were still at mainline, and we had about 10,000 less RJs clogging up the system. In 1993 at ExpressJet, we just had merged four regional airlines under one certificate (Britt Airways), had a fleet of ATR-42/72s, EMB-120s, and BE-1900s. It wasn't until 1997 when we ordered 200 regional jets. Now we have 274, dropping to 230 here in the near future.

You can't compare 1993 to 2008, unless you want to acknowledge the fact that a huge amount of flying has shifted from the majors to the regionals, thereby limiting the earning potential of most pilots starting out today.
 

adreamer

Well-Known Member
777, thanks for your "food for thought". ;);)

I know you mean well. However, I do agree with most other posts. We need to strive for better "working conditions, paid and benefits" as a "profession pilots group". :)
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
I honestly admire your enthusiasm and half glass full approach to this career. But please be respectful and use some tact when talking about the past, present, and the future of aviation. You can't compare the past to now. Back in the 90's gas was still affordable, housing wasn't through the roof (except on the coasts, NYC), college was still available to many without loans, flying was cheap, etc. Variables are constantly changing so you can't compare spending 10K on training to know. With the cost of living combined with the low wages, pilots are still paying for their own training, it's just not an upfront cost.

In my opinion, I feel you're bringing down the profession with your "I'm just happy to have a job" mentality. This is a career, not a hobby. Pilots are supporting wives, children, parents, <insert other reasons here>, etc. Think about that while you're still living at home with your parents.
I live out on my own in ATL. Parents in Dallas. Think about that before making more assumptions

777, What is your favorite flavor of kool-aid?
Cherry

Point proven.

You'll take just about anything you can/did get.

You continue to make yourself look like a total fool.
Merit, you are the king of making yourself look like a fool. Going from #1 XJET cheerleader to #1 XJET basher. So lets not even go there.
 

KLB

Well-Known Member
I think that you can be thankful for what you have and still strive to make things better. There is no reason to be doom and gloom all the time because there is always someone out there that has/had it worse than you.
 

JoelT

Well-Known Member
Back in 1993 jets were still at mainline, and we had about 10,000 less RJs clogging up the system. In 1993 at ExpressJet, we just had merged four regional airlines under one certificate (Britt Airways), had a fleet of ATR-42/72s, EMB-120s, and BE-1900s. It wasn't until 1997 when we ordered 200 regional jets. Now we have 274, dropping to 230 here in the near future.

You can't compare 1993 to 2008, unless you want to acknowledge the fact that a huge amount of flying has shifted from the majors to the regionals, thereby limiting the earning potential of most pilots starting out today.
:yeahthat:
 
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