Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[🦈💜]

I'll try to make this succinct:

I'm not moving on to a legacy. Whether it's because I'm trans, I don't have a degree, they don't like my face, idk, but nobody's calling, and I'm 44.

I absolutely love the flying part of this job. I love taking care of my passengers, my crews, and the art and artistry of flying a transport category jet well. Being captain is wonderful, and the airplane I fly is, in my biased opinion, one of the best in the industry. My FOs and FAs often tell me that they love flying with me, and seem happy to see me on their schedules, and I love the crews I fly with.

But I'm tired. Bone tired. Chronically fatigued. My quality of life is nonexistent, and I have no control over my schedule. Senior captains at my airline with almost 30 years are saying same thing. We have no ability to modify our schedules—what we're awarded is what we fly unless we call out sick, which the company is extremely aggressive about. (We get 6 days per year before we start getting the side-eye. That's one 4-day and two locals.)

In my case, I'm at the bottom of the list for the entirety of the foreseeable future, so I'm getting AM short call reserve (2hr) at 3am, 18-19 days per month.

I get called every single reserve day, usually right at 3am for a 5am show. My circadian rhythm is permanently nocturnal—I don't go to sleep until 6am on my days off, which often leads to having less than an hour of poor-quality off-cycle sleep before my alarm goes off.

Tomorrow I have a 5am report time to work an 11 hour, 4-leg day—which will probably be 12-13+ hours, with delays factored in, followed by min rest (9.5 hours) and a 0355 show (base time) the next day.

It's literally shortening my lifespan and wrecking my life. There is no end in sight.

For the first time in more than ten years of flying professionally, I'm making enough to make ends meet. But only just barely. I'm touching about $200k of income, but that's really close to what I made in my first full year working in tech as a 19-year-old, when you adjust it for inflation. (For reference, tech jobs that I'm qualified for are around $210-$280k at the moment, which has also basically just scaled with inflation.)

It's still not enough to afford a house anywhere safe for me and my mates.

If I sound somewhat desperate, it's because I am. Something's got to give—I'm being run to death, and I don't know what to do.

All I've ever wanted to do was fly, and I still do, but I'm considering hanging up my wings.

I could use some advice.

(That said, I'm looking for advice, not 'tough love,' 'GeT A DeGReE' or any of that. I'm currently taking one class per term on the side in pursuit of knowledge, and I barely have enough time to do the minimum.)

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Maybe a change of scenery? Part 91 corporate (not 91K that's no better than what you're doing) or a startup Avelo or Breeze maybe? Allegiant? Sim instructor?

I don't think quitting is the answer until and unless you have something else to go to.

And 44 isn't that old. That's still two decades of major airline flying if that's what you want to do!

 

[JordanD]

(That said, I'm looking for advice, not 'tough love,' 'GeT A DeGReE' or any of that. I'm currently taking one class per term on the side in pursuit of knowledge, and I barely have enough time to do the minimum.)

Specific to this, are you going online or somewhere locally? Online can still be an absolute drag when you're working full time, I drove myself nuts doing homework on layovers and in the crashpad. If you haven't already, have you looked into CLEP and other ways of testing out of courses? You're a smart person, you'd probably be able to knock out a fair amount of credits that way.

 

[JustinS]

Life is full of choices. I feel you have enough experience and perspective to make a decision. My personal advice I would stay at your current job until something better is secured. Whether that be your dream tech job or a good corporate flying job that checks all your boxes or whatever it is that you can go to sleep each night and be happy with the decision you’ve made. If you can’t positively say you’re making a better move for yourself then it’s likely not.

 

[killbilly]

@JustinS speaks truth.

When I was still in tech, one of my mentors said, "Don't run away FROM something, rather, find something to run TO."

I think this guidance holds true in this profession as well.

 

[JDean3204]

Specific to this, are you going online or somewhere locally? Online can still be an absolute drag when you're working full time, I drove myself nuts doing homework on layovers and in the crashpad. If you haven't already, have you looked into CLEP and other ways of testing out of courses? You're a smart person, you'd probably be able to knock out a fair amount of credits that way.

He is onto something here^^

You should look into Exelsior College. Had a friend Clep and Dante test an entire liberal arts degree in 8 months. I think each test costs 100-200(ish). I know you’re intelligent and could probably make that happen!

Don’t give up, I can’t imagine the degree being the issue in this last push. It may be again if the future continues to tighten, but I knew many at ATI who had that degree and still got turned down at certain places.

When you interview, how do you feel about the process? Are you relaxed and projecting an excitement to be there?

Again don’t give up please, you’ve worked too hard to just throw the towel in now. This is coming from someone who has wanted to throw the towel a time or two.

 

[bimmerphile]

lack of sleep seems to be the alligator closest to the boat, being perpetually tired and out of whack does no good for the mental health. you'll have the same problem at a legacy unless you are only targeting night freight
is there a lifestyle choice that keeps you up until 6am on your days off? doing a big circadian swap weekly is really tough on the body

 

[Kingairer]

You need to make some lifestyle adjustments if you cant make ends meet on 200K/yr...Maybe that means moving to another base with more affordable housing? I wouldnt make the mistake again of getting out of aviation as it sounds like something you want to do, and other jobs suck, and dont provide the same enjoyment that aviation does. Continue working on the degree on the side, working on a class a 2 a semester is easily doable. Is it possible to get an associates online and then turn it into the bachelors? If you have an associates at least, it would give you a nice, easier, goal to get to, and to start checking resume boxes. I dont imagine hiring requirements at majors will loosen anytime soon, so if your current gig is miserable I would try another airline that would be a step up, like a ULCC. I hear those can have some fantastic quality of life. Also, if you arent already, start using some sick time for mental health and break from the 4 or 5 day grinds.

 

[🦈💜]

Maybe a change of scenery? Part 91 corporate (not 91K that's no better than what you're doing) or a startup Avelo or Breeze maybe? Allegiant? Sim instructor?

Quite a few SkyWest pilots went to Breeze and returned to SkyWest, which says a lot. In general I haven't heard good things.

Allegient—I don't want to work for an airline that throws their pilots under the bus that hard—I'm thinking of the guy who got fired for RTO in LAS, or the one who was termed for doing an evac with smoke in the cabin.

Sim instructor at the current shop doesn't sound like much fun, as much as I enjoy our sim instructors.

I've considered it though.

I don't think quitting is the answer until and unless you have something else to go to.

You know, normally that makes sense, but this schedule is brutal.

And 44 isn't that old. That's still two decades of major airline flying if that's what you want to do!

A lot of advice and suggestions are couched in terms of "when I get to a major," and I just don't think that's likely at this point.

Specific to this, are you going online or somewhere locally? Online can still be an absolute drag when you're working full time, I drove myself nuts doing homework on layovers and in the crashpad. If you haven't already, have you looked into CLEP and other ways of testing out of courses? You're a smart person, you'd probably be able to knock out a fair amount of credits that way.

I'm doing an animation industry 3D character program.

I'm not interested in box checking. If there were a place I could pay $X to to audit my experience and give me appropriate degrees, I might consider it.

Life is full of choices. I feel you have enough experience and perspective to make a decision.

I do. And I did. I had a number of people certain they could get me on at their shop when I left this job the previous time, but they were mistaken.

At the moment it's very, very difficult to find perspective. When I came back to this job, everyone was telling me that I'd only be here a few months, if I even finished training.

I'm a year in now.

My personal advice I would stay at your current job until something better is secured. Whether that be your dream tech job or a good corporate flying job that checks all your boxes or whatever it is that you can go to sleep each night and be happy with the decision you’ve made. If you can’t positively say you’re making a better move for yourself then it’s likely not.

Honestly, I can straight up say that the best move for my long-term physical and mental health would be to turn in my two weeks notice and do literally anything else, at this point.

That's part of the reason I'm reaching out. I truly don't care about money, only qol and having enough to get by.

@JustinS speaks truth.
When I was still in tech, one of my mentors said, "Don't run away FROM something, rather, find something to run TO."

I generally would have said the same, except I'd have added that if something isn't working, find something better for you.

And while there are thousands of tech companies, there are only a few dozen airlines, total.

When you interview, how do you feel about the process? Are you relaxed and projecting an excitement to be there?

Very much so. Chief meet and greets and interview prep went very well. To me it felt like the interviews themselves went well.

Again don’t give up please, you’ve worked too hard to just throw the towel in now. This is coming from someone who has wanted to throw the towel a time or two.

lack of sleep seems to be the alligator closest to the boat, being perpetually tired and out of whack does no good for the mental health.

Absolutely true. Right now, for example, it's 16:50 and my alarm goes off in ten hours. It's causing me significant anxiety, which is keeping me from recuperating on my days off.

you'll have the same problem at a legacy unless you are only targeting night freight

I think there's a disconnect here from people who don't realize how bad these schedules can be. I have many, many friends at legacies and I have yet to see anyone with schedules like mine.
Early starts? Sure. Circadian flips? Sure. Redeye? Sure. All of the above with min rest 18+ days a month and not great work rules...?

is there a lifestyle choice that keeps you up until 6am on your days off?

No. It's my normal circadian rhythm, and has been since I was a kid. Some people are wired this way.

I will tell you with absolute certainty (and a lot of experience) that no amount of getting up early and being exhausted will change it. In fact, I've discovered that the circadian swap:

doing a big circadian swap weekly is really tough on the body

... while tough on the body, is the only way to be even remotely rested.

You need to make some lifestyle adjustments if you cant make ends meet on 200K/yr...

Realistically, $200k in 2024 is ~$100k in 1999.
Net: $~9k/mo.
Rent: -$3k
Utilities: ~$1k
Insurance/fees/online services/etc: $1k
Food (for three): $3k
Car payment: $1k (0%/36mo)
Savings: (the rest)

I'm not having trouble making ends meet, per se, but buying a house where I live ($1.5mil+) is out of scope.

Maybe that means moving to another base with more affordable housing?

Unfortunately, the other bases that are safe for three trans people (SEA, PDX) are very senior and not far behind in COL.

I wouldnt make the mistake again of getting out of aviation as it sounds like something you want to do, and other jobs suck, and dont provide the same enjoyment that aviation does.

Counterpoint: They do provide a different enjoyment, and nights/weekends with my family, and the ability to work from home, and enough money to afford a place of our own.

Min rest in base is a remarkably stupid thing:
Release 15 minutes after the brake is set. 10 hour clock starts.
-30 minutes to parking garage
-1hr drive home
-30 mins getting ready the next morning
-1hr drive back
-30 minutes from parking garage to "show"
That leaves 6.5 hours for eating, showering, washing clothes, maintaining my uniform, etc.

... if your current gig is miserable I would try another airline that would be a step up, like a ULCC. I hear those can have some fantastic quality of life.

But they're not hiring, and unfortunately none of them have realistic bases, even if they were.

Also, if you arent already, start using some sick time for mental health and break from the 4 or 5 day grinds.

I really need to. I've never called in sick when I wasn't sick in my career, and I'm already sitting on 7 days in the last 12 months, which puts me in the "unreliable" bucket. (got covid in my crashpad, sick twice after, two fatigue calls (which I didn't include in that sum))

I'm big on integrity, which is definitely a liability in this line of work.

Anyway, I appreciate the input.

 

[JordanD]

I get where you're at, the OO junior CA schedules were absolutely brutal when I was doing them, and I can't imagine that they've gotten any better. I'd commute back from Chicago to the West Coast for my "two" days off, the first of which was spent commuting home, the second of which was spent commuting back to Chicago. You almost wanted to cry driving back to the airport knowing the closest reprieve was that "long" block of 3 days off coming up in 3 weeks. I'd have killed to live in base but the scenario you outlined with min rest sounds pretty awful too. It's brutal and wears you down, I get it.

I feel like I have to be a little blunt though and ask a question that my wife and I ask each other when one of us goes off: "Do you want me to offer solutions, or do you just want to vent?" "I just need to vent" is a perfectly valid response. A lot of people have given advice, and hopefully more do. With that said, you've gone through line by line and given a reason why every suggestion people have offered doesn't work for you. Some of them are fair reasons, and some of them frankly are not. But I have to ask, is there a piece of advice that you would consider? Because from where I'm sitting it looks like lot of good advice is being shot down.

 

[BrettInLJ]

I know you say you will never make it to a major but that isn't necessarily the case. I was older than you when I finally did and I was far from the oldest in my class (who was 60 I think). I will echo the sentiment of taking some sick time to protect your mental health, even a few days at a time.

It is definitely difficult to take care of 3 people on $200k salary in San Jose, one of the costliest housing markets in the US. I don't know their situation but is there any way out of you being the soul contributor? COL in the PDX area, especially if you live in Vancouver, WA (no income tax), though high compared to the midwest is actually much lower than San Jose/SFO. I flew with two pilots last week that commute from there and live across the river. SEA is definitely expensive but not on the level of the Bay Area.

You are taking classes which is a good step. I'm sure you have been told about hitting career fairs ad nauseam so I won't repeat that advice. For the right now I would prioritize just taking a bit of time off even if using leave/sick time to reset before making any decision. And try to get out of the state of mind that you will never make it to a major. A change like moving to one of the slightly less expensive places may be in order for both the COL and a change of scene.

You love flying, so don't run from it because the "right now" feels like forever. It's just feelz.

 

[DPApilot]

I know you say you will never make it to a major but that isn't necessarily the case. I was older than you when I finally did and I was far from the oldest in my class (who was 60 I think). I will echo the sentiment of taking some sick time to protect your mental health, even a few days at a time.

It is definitely difficult to take care of 3 people on $200k salary in San Jose, one of the costliest housing markets in the US. I don't know their situation but is there any way out of you being the soul contributor? COL in the PDX area, especially if you live in Vancouver, WA (no income tax), though high compared to the midwest is actually much lower than San Jose/SFO. I flew with two pilots last week that commute from there and live across the river. SEA is definitely expensive but not on the level of the Bay Area.

You are taking classes which is a good step. I'm sure you have been told about hitting career fairs ad nauseam so I won't repeat that advice. For the right now I would prioritize just taking a bit of time off even if using leave/sick time to reset before making any decision. And try to get out of the state of mind that you will never make it to a major. A change like moving to one of the slightly less expensive places may be in order for both the COL and a change of scene.

You love flying, so don't run from it because the "right now" feels like forever. It's just feelz.

This! It is extremely easy to get burnt out when it feels like there are zero options. The industry is extremely fluid, and hiring changes daily. I had a very good friend bomb what he thought was a great interview when it came to the “do you have any questions for us?” Part. He’s now at his dream place.

I know it’s tough, and I can’t give any 100% answer as to what to do, but I would hope someone with your skills would make it to the right person eventually who gives you the go.

 

[Boots2Wings]

My two cents:
Youve worked too hard, and sacrificed so much in your pursuit of this profession to give it up, but Im worried your letting the fatigue cloud your judgement about the job/lifestyle more than you realize. I get it, trust me…the feeling of waking up in the morning counting the minutes until you can sleep again, dragging every moment of anxiety and stress into what feels like a never ending box of despair…but it gets better. Now for advice, since you want it, what little I might offer:

1) Go anywhere else, that has reasonable trips, progression, etc, even if it feels like a lateral. Try your hand at ACMI, ULCC, 135, whatever. Anything sounds like an improvement in QOL over your current. Put apps in everywhere, all the time. Dont let the sour koolaid rumor mill stop you from escaping your current toxic shop. Grass is grass, sometimes your patch is only green to you…but its still green. You will take a pay cut, but what good is money if you arent enjoying when you can spend it?

2) The biggest “mistake” i see you personally making, appears to be what so many student we all had in our CFI days did…they were locked into living in xyz state/place/town. Your commute, your base, etc are everything and you seem dead set on living wherever you do, despite the glaring issues it causes (drive time to work, cost of living, crap seniority, the list goes on). Im sorry, but at 200k a year, literally anyone saying they are barely making ends meat, is living in the wrong zip code. Move to a different place, pick a different base, what have you…but if your making that much, single income or not, married or not, kids or not…that shouldnt be such a pinch.

3) Sick =/= Physically. Your clearly mentally and physicaly drained, so you should feel no personal guilt for using sick days to recover. Moreover, not familiar with your shop, but maybe use something akin to FMLA and take a good chunk off. Hell, maybe just call your CP and lay it out…worst they can say is no.

Its a personal decision at the end of the day, but make sure whichever route you take, you do it AFTER you get your fatigue level down.

Good luck, get some rest, and keep on keeping on.

 

[Wardogg]

Food for 3 is 3k?

We have 4 adults and 2 preteens in my house. Our monthly food budget is 1800. That’s including dog food and Toiletries.

 

[///AMG]

I'm not going to give you advice because I know nothing more about your situation than you have stated here. But one piece of advice given that I'd agree with is that SEA or PDX (while living across the river) is nowhere near as expensive as SJC area. You have settled in one of the costliest parts of the country. SEA proper is probably not too far behind, as you mention, but there are plenty of other enclaves around. I'd probably bias my search more towards PDX. Hell, the taxes are way higher on the OR side (because state income tax), but you could live in EUG or any other town south of PDX and car commute. EUG and PDX are very friendly. That all having been said, I don't know what your seniority situation offers in terms of these even being options at the moment. Do what your heart is telling you to do though. A bunch of people on the internet don't know you as well as you do.

 

[🦈💜]

Just to be clear, money isn't the problem here. My food expenses are high because I'm on reserve and on the road all the time. Not knowing where I'll be on a given night makes it impossible to pack food, and grubhub adds up. Plus food costs in the bay area are substantial, and I refuse to live on fast food and compromise my health to save a buck.

My problem is time, rest, and life outside of work.

Seattle and Portland are not currently options, though I would consider them if they were.

 

[///AMG]

Well on the QOL note, which sounds like is the actual issue, is there a point in the future in a reasonable timeframe where your seniority will allow this to improve? Or is it "this is it forever, I need to decide if I can keep slugging it out this way?". Sounds like you don't want to. Nothing wrong with that. What you describe sounds miserable, to put it mildly. Are there other fields that interest you? I know you mentioned tech, which is fairly broad, but is whatever part of it that you were employed doing, still interesting?

 

[mikecweb]

Quit and buy/rent an airplane someday.
If you can’t make 200k work and you need to live in a certain zip code right now then this isn't the industry for you. Sounds like you love to fly but dont love the industry. Life is too short to be miserable, I read obits literally everyday now reinforcing that.

Those that have moved on to “bigger” and “better” are flexible, you don’t seem to be.
I moved 10 times in 15 years and went to every corner of the industry to get where I am and there’s a fair amount of luck that helped along the way. In a 18 year career I think I made over 200k, 6 of those?

 

[Ian_J]

How long is your seat lock? Would bidding over to FO improve your QOL?

 

[Kingairer]

I really need to. I've never called in sick when I wasn't sick in my career, and I'm already sitting on 7 days in the last 12 months, which puts me in the "unreliable" bucket. (got covid in my crashpad, sick twice after, two fatigue calls (which I didn't include in that sum))

I'm big on integrity, which is definitely a liability in this line of work.

Anyway, I appreciate the input.

You dont have to have a cold to call in sick, it really sounds like a sick call could be warranted if your not 100% for whatever reason.