Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[ahw01]

It's an interesting one. Sounds like you're locked into the high cost of living in CA. The PAC-NW sounds great, you need to switch into a routine that makes the current situation work for you. As seniority improves you can gradually ease yourself out of it. You'd need to commit to being a night worker, and adjust your routine accordingly - is the current house set up ok to do that? Burning the candle at both ends wont be productive. Are there options to stay with family? That could help cost wise.

 

[🦈💜]

I really appreciate all the info you guys. I hope nobody feels like I've dismissed their suggestions. I'm on the road today, I always feel much better when I'm back in the fight. Most of my anxiety is on my days off, oddly enough.

i'll have more time to respond to stuff at some point in the future, and I hope to get around to everyone's comments. If all had a lot to say, and it's all appreciated.

 

[🦈💜]

I get where you're at, the OO junior CA schedules were absolutely brutal when I was doing them, and I can't imagine that they've gotten any better. I'd commute back from Chicago to the West Coast for my "two" days off, the first of which was spent commuting home, the second of which was spent commuting back to Chicago. You almost wanted to cry driving back to the airport knowing the closest reprieve was that "long" block of 3 days off coming up in 3 weeks. I'd have killed to live in base but the scenario you outlined with min rest sounds pretty awful too. It's brutal and wears you down, I get it.

It sounds like you know where I'm at.

I feel like I have to be a little blunt though and ask a question that my wife and I ask each other when one of us goes off: "Do you want me to offer solutions, or do you just want to vent?" "I just need to vent" is a perfectly valid response.

It's less venting and more searching for unconventional solutions, since the conventional "go to regionals, go to major, gain seniority, etc" line doesn't appear to be workable in my case. I'm hoping to find ideas—something that someone thinks of that I haven't. Join a flying circus, fly IFR caravans on floats in Met, apply to Kaiser air, go fly a Navajo, etc. Or even "yeah, that sucks. It looks like you're not going to get to a major, so you're better off just bouncing back into corpo-world."

A lot of people have given advice, and hopefully more do. With that said, you've gone through line by line and given a reason why every suggestion people have offered doesn't work for you. Some of them are fair reasons, and some of them frankly are not.

Honest question: Who decides that someone else's reasons are fair? Life is really short, and can get a lot shorter depending on how we live it. Most advice offered is stuff that I've already considered, weighed, and placed on the list of available options. Some of it won't work for me, for various reasons, or simply doesn't fit into my list of priorities.

Because from where I'm sitting it looks like lot of good advice is being shot down.

I think that by saying this, you prejudice people reading the thread to think that that's what I'm doing, which I don't think is fair. Re-reading my responses, I don't see what you're describing. In fact, pretty much every response I've made in this thread has been something to the effect of "I'm considering that," or "I've considered that, but it's literally not possible, or not possible right now."

But you're making it sound like I'm "shooting down" everyone's great advice, which I don't think is accurate.

 

[ppragman]

All I've ever wanted to do was fly, and I still do, but I'm considering hanging up my wings.

First, about the age, it's not the years, it's the mileage, and flying puts city-miles on your body. Make sure to position yourself so you can have more time for you.

Regardless, I understand a little bit about where you are coming from. I will say, all I ever wanted to do from the time I was about 5 or 6 was fly airplanes. Other things looked "ok" - but nothing could compare. Then I flew airplanes for a long time, and the only thing I wanted was "the next step" on the progress ladder until the last couple years where I made it where I wanted to be. I was always grinding towards "the next" thing and it was exhausting. Then, suddenly I wasn't able to fly anymore and I had a crisis of identitiy to go along with that which I'm still not entirely out of. Trust me when I say, you will find "who" you are after you're not flying anymore if you decide to leave, but it will be hard. In some ways, I'm better for it, but there are better ways to do find what you are looking for than sacrificing your health and mental wellbeing to chase the next big thing. In retrospect, saying "hey, I want to have more control over this aspect of my life" then making that happen instead of it being forced on me would have been preferable. That's a lot to say, "try not to wrap your mental picture of yourself up in your certificates and job description."

I never flew "big airplanes" or worked for an airline, but still, literally all I wanted to do was fly. I will say this, the control I had over my life and the quality I had was much better when I flew smaller airplanes in Alaska and Hawaii. In particular, the QoL was amazing when I flew medevac. I never felt pressured to fly, and the work I did was meaningful. It's a lot easier to drag yourself out of bed in the morning when what you're doing matters to someone too. Getting called at 2am sucks, but there are ways to make that not terrible, and you get time off. Lots of time off.

If you want to have control over your life, you're not going to have it in RJ land though, that was something that was blindingly obvious to me in 2012 when I jumped off the AK -> Freight -> 121 pipeline before I ever got to 121. When I got married, we had a kid on the way, and I needed a job that would allow me to be home every night and make a decent middle class income, so I came back to Alaska. At that time I mostly gave up on the airline thing through the traditional pathway. I think my life was better for it. I always wanted to fly big airplanes and make the money of a major, but I was not willing to make the sacrifice down to poverty wages and miserable QoL to get from here to there and in the end. You made it farther than I did down that road and still don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe it's time to find a different tunnel?

Flying was all I ever wanted to do too, and then one day I couldn't do it anymore. It hurt, and there are still a lot of days where I think, "man, I wish I was still flying, this paperwork is BS" but I understand this in my bones. I would start by trying to detach your sense of self from the flying world. I know that's really hard, but yeah, I'd recommend that.

 

[ppragman]

It's less venting and more searching for unconventional solutions, since the conventional "go to regionals, go to major, gain seniority, etc" line doesn't appear to be workable in my case. I'm hoping to find ideas—something that someone thinks of that I haven't. Join a flying circus, fly IFR caravans on floats in Met, apply to Kaiser air, go fly a Navajo, etc. Or even "yeah, that sucks. It looks like you're not going to get to a major, so you're better off just bouncing back into corpo-world."

Yeah, go fly medevac, or go back north, but be choosy on the operator.

 

[CFI A&P]

First of all, you've been here a while and have considerable seniority on JC, so much of this shouldn't be new info. With that being said, here comes the but: you know the old saying about repeated actions expecting different results? You're going to have to budge on something because the industry is cooling off, compared to 4-5 years ago, which means YOU have to make the change YOU want. This will sound like a broken record, reevaluate the personal life. Changing bases (it doesn't sound like you could get worse reserve schedule anyway) so at least the win would be enjoying your time off and COL.

Earning a degree isn't an overnight thing, but if it checks the box and gets you in the door? Same for interview prep, and resume review. I know plenty of people hate it and are vehemently opposed to it, but if a few hours and $500 would be well spent in the 20+ remaining years in the career.

Or change employers even if it is a lateral move. Home based positions usually put the commute on company time, which is a huge boost in QoL compared to commuting in a night before and crashpad life. This ad just came across my feed this morning and I don't have any connection, just coincidence that I saw it.

 

[JDean3204]

First of all, you've been here a while and have considerable seniority on JC, so much of this shouldn't be new info. With that being said, here comes the but: you know the old saying about repeated actions expecting different results? You're going to have to budge on something because the industry is cooling off, compared to 4-5 years ago, which means YOU have to make the change YOU want. This will sound like a broken record, reevaluate the personal life. Changing bases (it doesn't sound like you could get worse reserve schedule anyway) so at least the win would be enjoying your time off and COL.

Earning a degree isn't an overnight thing, but if it checks the box and gets you in the door? Same for interview prep, and resume review. I know plenty of people hate it and are vehemently opposed to it, but if a few hours and $500 would be well spent in the 20+ remaining years in the career.

Or change employers even if it is a lateral move. Home based positions usually put the commute on company time, which is a huge boost in QoL compared to commuting in a night before and crashpad life. This ad just came across my feed this morning and I don't have any connection, just coincidence that I saw it.
View attachment 78210

ATI schedules were the most brutal FDP I ever experienced in my life. I am not a person who cares much of who or what I fly, but I was a good few years in there and I had come to the conclusion that the only good thing about ATI’s abysmal retirement is I wouldn’t need much, because I’d be dead after 30 years of those schedules.

 

[CFI A&P]

ATI schedules were the most brutal FDP I ever experienced in my life. I am not a person who cares much of who or what I fly, but I was a good few years in there and I had come to the conclusion that the only good thing about ATI’s abysmal retirement is I wouldn’t need much, because I’d be dead after 30 years of those schedules.

The beauty of JC right here. Someone on the board has first hand experience with an operator and can share it, whether it is good or bad. I have no connection to the shop, just happened to see the ad and glad to see that this is a place where we can share and discuss real world opportunities in the industry.

 

[JordanD]

Honest question: Who decides that someone else's reasons are fair? Life is really short, and can get a lot shorter depending on how we live it. Most advice offered is stuff that I've already considered, weighed, and placed on the list of available options. Some of it won't work for me, for various reasons, or simply doesn't fit into my list of priorities.

I think we just have to be honest with each other. I think your reason for not getting a degree right now because it's time intensive and you don't have much is a fair reason that I understand. But the stand against "checking boxes" is one that I don't get, because checking boxes is kind of how hiring works to an extent. We could go around and around debating the merits of it but at the end of the day having a degree, any degree has always been kind of a prerequisite to be competitive. It's a pretty crucial part of the game we all have to play, I think especially now that hiring has kind of normalized from the frenzy that was 2021-2023. Two of my successful major interviews came almost immediately after checking that box. Was it coincidence? Maybe. But sometimes I can't help but wonder where I'd be if I hadn't. I still occasionally wonder if I'd be in my current seat with a few years more seniority if I'd checked that box sooner, because to be honest, my excuses weren't that great.

I think that by saying this, you prejudice people reading the thread to think that that's what I'm doing, which I don't think is fair. Re-reading my responses, I don't see what you're describing. In fact, pretty much every response I've made in this thread has been something to the effect of "I'm considering that," or "I've considered that, but it's literally not possible, or not possible right now."

But you're making it sound like I'm "shooting down" everyone's great advice, which I don't think is accurate.

I don't think that's the case, but it does seem like there's a reason why a lot of advice doesn't work and I feel like we've come to the point where the choices are pretty clear. Your current job is taking a toll, and that doesn't seem like it's likely to improve. You want to keep flying, so that really just leaves trying something else. Your next job absolutely doesn't have to be your retirement gig or mean that a major will never happen. You said you've considered other jobs, but is that the end of it? Are you still considering other avenues of flying? I think if you ultimately want to end up at a major that is the important part, to keep flying something.

 

[Hiboglossi]

ATI schedules were the most brutal FDP I ever experienced in my life. I am not a person who cares much of who or what I fly, but I was a good few years in there and I had come to the conclusion that the only good thing about ATI’s abysmal retirement is I wouldn’t need much, because I’d be dead after 30 years of those schedules.

Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I find the schedules at ATI much nicer than they were at the regionals, for the most part. And even then the schedules at C5 were nowhere near as bad as what 🦈💜 is describing at her company. It is true there are a lot of circadian swaps, though, so I suppose it depends on how much those bother you. Based on what 🦈💜 said about being nocturnal, I wonder if some of the more tiring night shifts we have wouldn't bother her too much

First of all, you've been here a while and have considerable seniority on JC, so much of this shouldn't be new info. With that being said, here comes the but: you know the old saying about repeated actions expecting different results? You're going to have to budge on something because the industry is cooling off, compared to 4-5 years ago, which means YOU have to make the change YOU want. This will sound like a broken record, reevaluate the personal life. Changing bases (it doesn't sound like you could get worse reserve schedule anyway) so at least the win would be enjoying your time off and COL.

Earning a degree isn't an overnight thing, but if it checks the box and gets you in the door? Same for interview prep, and resume review. I know plenty of people hate it and are vehemently opposed to it, but if a few hours and $500 would be well spent in the 20+ remaining years in the career.

Or change employers even if it is a lateral move. Home based positions usually put the commute on company time, which is a huge boost in QoL compared to commuting in a night before and crashpad life. This ad just came across my feed this morning and I don't have any connection, just coincidence that I saw it.
View attachment 78210

That is interesting, I thought we'd stopped hiring. Although it is supposed to be a temporary pause, since the left seat is badly understaffed right now, until they can correct that imbalance, but since the doors of pilot hiring seem to be slamming shut industry wise, I was wondering if it might end up being a long term or permanent pause. It does sound like the home basing would solve a lot of🦈💜's problems. And while we do have the occasional ~3am report time, it at least isn't every single day (or even most days). Though you do make much less that $200,000 the first year, so it would be a significant pay cut.

The beauty of JC right here. Someone on the board has first hand experience with an operator and can share it, whether it is good or bad. I have no connection to the shop, just happened to see the ad and glad to see that this is a place where we can share and discuss real world opportunities in the industry.

I've worked there for a little over a year now, and it's easily the best job I've ever had. Admittedly, my perspective may be skewed, since I was at pretty much the lowest of the bottom feeder regionals for a while before that.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I can tell you that sim instructing definitely shouldn't be on your radar. I don't know what your situation is, but having a 200k nut to make while living with 2 other people is going to severely limit your options. What did you do when you left Skywest the first time around? How relevant are your tech skills now that they have decayed for 20+ years? Are you able to downgrade to FO to have better seniority?

I know you don't want to hear this, but your best bet is to just stay the course. Things have slowed down a bit, but hiring will pick up again and you will be hired at some point by a major.

 

[JordanD]

First, about the age, it's not the years, it's the mileage, and flying puts city-miles on your body. Make sure to position yourself so you can have more time for you.

Regardless, I understand a little bit about where you are coming from. I will say, all I ever wanted to do from the time I was about 5 or 6 was fly airplanes. Other things looked "ok" - but nothing could compare. Then I flew airplanes for a long time, and the only thing I wanted was "the next step" on the progress ladder until the last couple years where I made it where I wanted to be. I was always grinding towards "the next" thing and it was exhausting. Then, suddenly I wasn't able to fly anymore and I had a crisis of identitiy to go along with that which I'm still not entirely out of. Trust me when I say, you will find "who" you are after you're not flying anymore if you decide to leave, but it will be hard. In some ways, I'm better for it, but there are better ways to do find what you are looking for than sacrificing your health and mental wellbeing to chase the next big thing. In retrospect, saying "hey, I want to have more control over this aspect of my life" then making that happen instead of it being forced on me would have been preferable. That's a lot to say, "try not to wrap your mental picture of yourself up in your certificates and job description."

I never flew "big airplanes" or worked for an airline, but still, literally all I wanted to do was fly. I will say this, the control I had over my life and the quality I had was much better when I flew smaller airplanes in Alaska and Hawaii. In particular, the QoL was amazing when I flew medevac. I never felt pressured to fly, and the work I did was meaningful. It's a lot easier to drag yourself out of bed in the morning when what you're doing matters to someone too. Getting called at 2am sucks, but there are ways to make that not terrible, and you get time off. Lots of time off.

If you want to have control over your life, you're not going to have it in RJ land though, that was something that was blindingly obvious to me in 2012 when I jumped off the AK -> Freight -> 121 pipeline before I ever got to 121. When I got married, we had a kid on the way, and I needed a job that would allow me to be home every night and make a decent middle class income, so I came back to Alaska. At that time I mostly gave up on the airline thing through the traditional pathway. I think my life was better for it. I always wanted to fly big airplanes and make the money of a major, but I was not willing to make the sacrifice down to poverty wages and miserable QoL to get from here to there and in the end. You made it farther than I did down that road and still don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe it's time to find a different tunnel?

Flying was all I ever wanted to do too, and then one day I couldn't do it anymore. It hurt, and there are still a lot of days where I think, "man, I wish I was still flying, this paperwork is BS" but I understand this in my bones. I would start by trying to detach your sense of self from the flying world. I know that's really hard, but yeah, I'd recommend that.

I'm glad you stick around here after you moved on from flying. I've been asked what I'd do if I couldn't fly for some reason and I think it's an important question everyone should think about and have a good answer for. I think being a pilot is too much of an identity for some people, and while I like my job I also have found a lot of peace in the fact that if I couldn't do it anymore, I know I'd find fulfillment elsewhere and fond memories of the career I've had.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I really appreciate all the info you guys. I hope nobody feels like I've dismissed their suggestions. I'm on the road today, I always feel much better when I'm back in the fight. Most of my anxiety is on my days off, oddly enough.

i'll have more time to respond to stuff at some point in the future, and I hope to get around to everyone's comments. If all had a lot to say, and it's all appreciated.

If your anxiety is on your off days, maybe that’s where the problem lies?

 

[CFIT99]

I really appreciate all the info you guys. I hope nobody feels like I've dismissed their suggestions. I'm on the road today, I always feel much better when I'm back in the fight. Most of my anxiety is on my days off, oddly enough.

i'll have more time to respond to stuff at some point in the future, and I hope to get around to everyone's comments. If all had a lot to say, and it's all appreciated.

everyones passion gets tested a few times, seriously hang in there.

I went to therapy a few years ago (yup and I recommend anyone to do it, it was life changing) essentially a life coach. Two of the vividly memorable quotes I heard during a session was:

"you've already accomplished some things that said would make you happy"

and

"the magic you seek is found in the work you avoid"

It me so hard I literally broke down crying. Because the work you are avoiding might just be perseverance. Don't compare yourself to the kid who got on at 25..."comparison is the thief of joy"

FTR, in my AA class almost 2 years ago, I was 38, and I was in the younger 1/3rd...average age was 43, oldest being 60.

Keep on truckin!

 

[JordanD]

Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I find the schedules at ATI much nicer than they were at the regionals, for the most part. And even then the schedules at C5 were nowhere near as bad as what 🦈💜 is describing at her company. It is true there are a lot of circadian swaps, though, so I suppose it depends on how much those bother you. Based on what 🦈💜 said about being nocturnal, I wonder if some of the more tiring night shifts we have wouldn't bother her too much

I wish this advice fit better because I get the impression her seniority doesn't allow for much, but you definitely have to find what works for you. I could have held widebody and not been bored out of my mind doing domestic NB, but I absolutely cannot take naps to save my life so I have a feeling that would literally kill me. But then I know people who fit in better with that and are probably more rested doing it.

 

[Skåning]

Quit and buy/rent an airplane someday.
If you can’t make 200k work and you need to live in a certain zip code right now then this isn't the industry for you. Sounds like you love to fly but dont love the industry. Life is too short to be miserable, I read obits literally everyday now reinforcing that.

Those that have moved on to “bigger” and “better” are flexible, you don’t seem to be.
I moved 10 times in 15 years and went to every corner of the industry to get where I am and there’s a fair amount of luck that helped along the way. In a 18 year career I think I made over 200k, 6 of those?

I think this kinda puts a point on it, IF a major airline is the goal you have to be willing to do what it takes. Sacrifice, move, make lateral moves, etc. The jobs dont come to you, you have to go to the job.

You left a seniority based gig contrary to the advice of folks here. Of course you had your reasons, but then you went back to the same gig to sit at the bottom. I feel for you, having interviewed at a few of the big guys and not getting an offer. But folks here also suggested you "play the game" a little better during interviews and you poo-poo'd that. It is important to have principles and to sleep well at night, but a bit of hustle is necessary too.

I sincerely hope you perceive through this rough patch because you have already made it so far.

Horizon is hiring experienced FOs, presumably a quick-ish upgrade, and you'd get SEA/PDX out of training. Sure maybe a blow to the ego going to another regional BUT if it gets you a better work/life balance it's a win.

 

[Beaker]

I am not yet to the airlines and therefore cannot fully comprehend your day to day struggle, but I have been chronically exhausted through other means and do not wish that on anyone. A year is a long time to keep plowing ahead when you do not know where the finish line is. All that to say that I am truly sorry you are going through a tough time.

If flying turbine airplanes remains your goal, then I would think you must continue flying turbine airplanes someway, somehow, until the you find the job that really works for you. However, if airplane type is irrelevant to you, I will point out something I observed when I lived in the Bay Area many years ago. It's tough out there because of the cost of living. But the cost of living is only high because a lot of wealthy people live there. Wealthy people engage in expensive hobbies and this supports a robust general aviation scene. See West Valley Flying Club at KPAO for example. Their large fleet includes the usual trainers but also the fancier airplanes like SR22s.

Here is the important part: their instructors charge a lot and stay busy. As in approaching $200 an hour in some cases. The Bay Area seems to be home to more legitimate career instructors than other locales. Some of these instructors also write books (Max Trescott) or contribute articles to flying magazines and pod casts (Jason Miller). You are a creative person who likes to write and is tied to the Bay Area. Maybe there is something here for you, if with a clear head you determine that flying bigger things is no longer the path.

 

[Kingairer]

A year of plowing ahead is nothing. Speed bump.

 

[JDean3204]

Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I find the schedules at ATI much nicer than they were at the regionals, for the most part. And even then the schedules at C5 were nowhere near as bad as what 🦈💜 is describing at her company. It is true there are a lot of circadian swaps, though, so I suppose it depends on how much those bother you. Based on what 🦈💜 said about being nocturnal, I wonder if some of the more tiring night shifts we have wouldn't bother her too much



That is interesting, I thought we'd stopped hiring. Although it is supposed to be a temporary pause, since the left seat is badly understaffed right now, until they can correct that imbalance, but since the doors of pilot hiring seem to be slamming shut industry wise, I was wondering if it might end up being a long term or permanent pause. It does sound like the home basing would solve a lot of🦈💜's problems. And while we do have the occasional ~3am report time, it at least isn't every single day (or even most days). Though you do make much less that $200,000 the first year, so it would be a significant pay cut.




I've worked there for a little over a year now, and it's easily the best job I've ever had. Admittedly, my perspective may be skewed, since I was at pretty much the lowest of the bottom feeder regionals for a while before that.

I had no idea you were at ATI!

I am glad it’s working for you, it def wasn’t all bad but for me the swaps left me wondering if I was coming or going after 16 days. You’re right, it isn’t a bad fit for those with nocturnal clocks, but in truth it was hard to even bid pure night after DHL went away. AMZ seems to swap day/night three to four times a trip, that’s what killed me. I miss the heck out of 2 weeks off at a time, with the ability to turn it into a month off multiple times a year between bid flips and vacation.

 

[Gonzo]

So first I want you to know that everything I am about to say comes from a place of love.

Having said that, stop playing the victim. Nobody gives a • you are trans, you having not moved on is because you will not play the games and check the boxes and I am willing to bet it shows at interviews. It is much easier to blame the fact you are trans than on a • attitude. Last time we talked you were very anti interview prep.

You keep saying money isn’t a factor than follow it up with complaining about money issues. Is there some reason your other two partners can’t work? Because quick back of the napkin math show $200K plus another $70K ($35K from each) equals you being able to afford a house anywhere you want.

And lastly the part that got me to reply and if I am being 100% honest pissed me off is this • you keep pushing “It's still not enough to afford a house anywhere safe for me and my mates.” it is insulting to all your allies who stand up for you and fight for you. Why should I fight for you when you aren’t willing to stand next to me in that fight? Nobody is hunting trans people. You aren’t the first trans pilot, and you will not be the last.

Did you ever reach out to Kelly Lepley at UPS?