climbing through ice

[USMCmech]

If i'm flying the van and can't maintain altitude or min. icing speed (120 I believe) I could care less about ITT or torque. I am firewalling the power lever and doing whatever it takes not to become a hole in the ground. If its a matter of not coming back at all, or returning with a blinking ETM, i'll take the latter.

Yeah that, with a caveatt.

If I've got plenty of altitude to drift down, then I'll save the engine till I REALLY need it. However if I'm close to the gound and still descending I'll burn that sucker up! Start limit is 1090 anyway.

 

[ppragman]

Your not going to melt a PT6-114 if you firewall for 20 seconds in the winter...And even if you do trash the engine, i'd rather be alive.

Not for 20 seconds no, but continued operations will hose you, I saw the pics of the motor someone fragged with a hot start, and now I'm uber cautious.

 

[MikeOH58]

Not for 20 seconds no, but continued operations will hose you, I saw the pics of the motor someone fragged with a hot start, and now I'm uber cautious.

Again...If trashing an engine means the difference between a controlled landing, or impacting the ground at 2000 fpm, my choice is obvious...When it comes down to whether I am coming home or not, the only people I owe anything to are my family and friends...If that means a hot inspection, than so be it.

 

[ppragman]

Again...If trashing an engine means the difference between a controlled landing, or impacting the ground at 2000 fpm, my choice is obvious...When it comes down to whether I am coming home or not, the only people I owe anything to are my family and friends...If that means a hot inspection, than so be it.

No no, I agree with that sentiment, get home alive, however I'd be damned careful before running the thing at 1000ITT for more than a couple of seconds, cuz after what I saw of the bore-scoped motor I don't think it'd last more than a few minutes like that, which wouldn't be good for controlled flight. There were literally craters in a brand new motor (less than 100hrs on it) and it had just been hot started, I wonder what it would have looked like if it had been run that way. I'd be afraid of making a bad situation worse by throwing the whips to it, and melting the motor on me when I'm already laden with ice. At that point uncontrolled is a certainty rather than just a possibility. The moral of the story is, try not to let yourself get f'ed up by serious icing. Steer clear if you can.

On the otherside of the coin, I remember that at my old company when someone nuked a motor on a missed approach and way over torqued the motors (by a couple thousand ft-lbs if I remember correctly) and the Hondo's -65Bs handled it like a champ. Apparently they we're climbing out to clear terrain at like 80-90kts in the thing empty. It's practically a helicopter at that point, crazy.

 

[Douglas]

If its a matter of not coming back at all, or returning with a blinking ETM, i'll take the latter.

Yeah, Palm 90.

 

[roundout]

Remember, if the airplane is certified for it, there's no reason to be afraid of normal icing as you drive along, just don't be an idiot.

That is dangerous advice. Ask the crew of the ATR at Roselawn. Just because the plane is certified doesn't mean you can plow along in ice with zero thought process.

 

[ppragman]

That is dangerous advice. Ask the crew of the ATR at Roselawn. Just because the plane is certified doesn't mean you can plow along in ice with zero thought process.

I said expressedly "just don't be an idiot." in my post. That's the critical part, exercise some judgment.

 

[roundout]

I saw that, but I still disagree. You have to know your airplane. Take the Caravan - it's certified but God help you if you start to pick up ice. You might be flying along in ice happily in a Lear until the little electric valve that controls the flow of hot air takes a dump. Or descending through ice in many jets - with power at idle you don't have enough bleed to keep the wings hot. There are just too many variables.

Claiming that you shouldn't be afraid of ice in a plane that's certified for it is just not cautious enough. Ask the crew of the Citation that went down in Pueblo.

 

[Fly_Unity]

A baron here a couple weeks ago in The Rocky Mountains had to put itself down on a road because it could not maintain altitude, a Metroliner III that same day reported a climb rate of only 200 FPM at full power (and an empty load) because he was loaded with ice. Ice scares me more then anything else in flying. Especially in the Rocky Mountains at night, single pilot.

 

[B767Driver]

A baron here a couple weeks ago in The Rocky Mountains had to put itself down on a road because it could not maintain altitude, a Metroliner III that same day reported a climb rate of only 200 FPM at full power (and an empty load) because he was loaded with ice. Ice scares me more then anything else in flying. Especially in the Rocky Mountains at night, single pilot.

Man...I've been there and never care to go back. Outside of military combat, you freight dogs are doing the most intense flying out there.

 

[A300Capt]

A baron here a couple weeks ago in The Rocky Mountains had to put itself down on a road because it could not maintain altitude, a Metroliner III that same day reported a climb rate of only 200 FPM at full power (and an empty load) because he was loaded with ice. Ice scares me more then anything else in flying. Especially in the Rocky Mountains at night, single pilot.

Three icing events stick out in my mind. One, while I was flying the Metro III from JHW-PIT. I had one passenger, the owner's daughter! We were almost empty and light on fuel and normally the sewer pipe was a pretty good performer. Icing was horrendous that night with everyone screaming about it! Lost 30+kts of airspeed and couldn't climb to get above the overcast even at full power and the tops were 15,000ft. Fortunately we began a descent into PIT and long story short landed relatively uneventfully except for my nerves being frayed. The thought of a full boat of passengers on that trip still scares me.

Second event was on the B757 going into KMSP. Again, mixed ice accumulation was VERY moderate to severe. The little guys in piston bangers were in a world of hurt and approach was trying to get them on the ground before letting the jets in. We held a while as we pondered our options...which were few. An inch or more of rime had accumulated around edge of both front winshields and was caked on the wiper bolts in a short period of time...that got my attention in a big way! After landing and blocking in I walked around the airplane. To this day I've never seen that much mixed ice hanging off the wings, tail feathers and nose section of a large jet.

Third event was freezing rain going into KRIC. Not sure when the coating began but by the time we blocked in the aircraft looked like a popsicle. Had trouble opening the forward entry door and the mechanics had to open the cargo door. Needless to say we never blocked out that night for the next leg of the trip.

Be very careful when flying around ice!!!!

 

[adreamer]

From my personal experiences, there is a particular flying day. I still rememer it well after a year.

Leg 1, We stated fly toward to PIT, FZRA was reported at PIT. Once we level of 16000, I memtioned to my CA that our wind shield was froze over with window heat on and side window start to icing over also. At the same time, I noticed we have lost about 10 kts off cruise speed. Thanks to my short term memory, I remember there was a temp inversion layer at 11000. After we descend, landed at PIT uneventfully.

Leg 2, FA called because passengers were asking about FZRA - "Rain froze on passengers' window."

Anyway, long story short, I have learned to pay attention to OAT when weather is forecasting icing around the plan route.

 

[jergar999]

A couple weeks ago I picked up about three inches in a King Air:

The above photo is from our heated hangar after everything was said and done and a good portion of it had melted off. Loss of 15kts that started during the descent, stall horn went off right before touchdown, firm landing that knocked most of the ice off the wings, instantly airborne 10-15 feet and a second smooth touchdown.

 

[seagull]

All true, but also remember that, to my knowledge, there has never been an accident of a swept "soft" wing transport jet due to ice, either in flight or from not getting deiced prior to departure. Not one. There are a few that can be attributed to not pushing the power up, though!

Three icing events stick out in my mind. One, while I was flying the Metro III from JHW-PIT. I had one passenger, the owner's daughter! We were almost empty and light on fuel and normally the sewer pipe was a pretty good performer. Icing was horrendous that night with everyone screaming about it! Lost 30+kts of airspeed and couldn't climb to get above the overcast even at full power and the tops were 15,000ft. Fortunately we began a descent into PIT and long story short landed relatively uneventfully except for my nerves being frayed. The thought of a full boat of passengers on that trip still scares me.

Second event was on the B757 going into KMSP. Again, mixed ice accumulation was VERY moderate to severe. The little guys in piston bangers were in a world of hurt and approach was trying to get them on the ground before letting the jets in. We held a while as we pondered our options...which were few. An inch or more of rime had accumulated around edge of both front winshields and was caked on the wiper bolts in a short period of time...that got my attention in a big way! After landing and blocking in I walked around the airplane. To this day I've never seen that much mixed ice hanging off the wings, tail feathers and nose section of a large jet.

Third event was freezing rain going into KRIC. Not sure when the coating began but by the time we blocked in the aircraft looked like a popsicle. Had trouble opening the forward entry door and the mechanics had to open the cargo door. Needless to say we never blocked out that night for the next leg of the trip.

Be very careful when flying around ice!!!!

 

[tgrayson]

never been an accident of a swept "soft" wing transport jet due to ice....from not getting deiced prior to departure. Not one. There are a few that can be attributed to not pushing the power up, though!

What about the Air Florida 737 that ended up in the Potomac?

 

[Roger, Roger]

I believe he is saying that the reason for that one was an incorrect power setting, caused by erroneous EPR readings, caused by ice contaminated probes.

 

[seagull]

I believe he is saying that the reason for that one was an incorrect power setting, caused by erroneous EPR readings, caused by ice contaminated probes.

Exactly, I doubt it would have flown regardless of the snow with the power setting they had.

 

[tgrayson]

Exactly, I doubt it would have flown regardless of the snow with the power setting they had.

But the flip side of the question is whether it could have flown had engine readings been normal? They were getting the stick shaker at normal flying speeds. The NTSB reports said:

However, since the engineering simulation showed that had full thrust (equivalent to 2.23 EPR) been added immediately following the activation of the stickshaker, the aircraft could probably have accelerated to a safe stall margin
​

That fact that they used the word "probably" seems to suggest that the aircraft had a load of ice close to the limit of what it could carry.

What would a reasonable EPR reading be for a cruise climb?

 

[seagull]

But the flip side of the question is whether it could have flown had engine readings been normal? They were getting the stick shaker at normal flying speeds. The NTSB reports said:

However, since the engineering simulation showed that had full thrust (equivalent to 2.23 EPR) been added immediately following the activation of the stickshaker, the aircraft could probably have accelerated to a safe stall margin
​

That fact that they used the word "probably" seems to suggest that the aircraft had a load of ice close to the limit of what it could carry.

What would a reasonable EPR reading be for a cruise climb?

As for reasonable EPR on that airplane, I couldn't answer that. I'm not sure what sort of engines it had, and a nominal EPR can vary substantially from engine type to engine type, etc.

Regardless, I did not say that ice doesn't affect the airplane (or, in this case, snow on top of the wings, etc), but the problem wasn't stick shaker. If they had tried a takeoff with clean wings at that power setting, it is almost certain that they would have gotten a stickshaker after takeoff, and, if they had full thrust from the start of the takeoff roll, they would have been fine. I'm not sure how "normal" the speeds were, I don't recall.

In any event, I stand by what Tony Broderick said on the topic, which, as you know, I was paraphrasing in my initial post. If the Associate administrator said that (wasn't he AFS-1 at the time?), publically, then it is probably pretty solid. Particularly considering his background.

 

[SierraPilot123]

Good decision. Climbing through 11,000 the other day, we picked up mod rime. It continued all the way to FL250 until we broke out of the clouds. The concept that you can out climb an ice layer doesn't always hold true. Keep in mind too, will you have ANY climb performance once you start to accumulate ice. We were only climbing 50ftpm when we finally broke out. Not a comfortable feeling with passengers in the back.

there was a freezing level last night at 5,000ft. My planned route of flight brought me up to about 12,000ft. There was a broken layer from 5,000ft-FL250. At 12,000ft the temp was about -9, I can't remember honestly.

I decided not to take the flight because the plane has no de-ice.

My buddy, however, said that we would've been fine. Climbing through 5,000ft, we would've picked up some ice, of course, but by the time we got to 12,000ft, everything would've already been frozen. At 12,000ft, we would not pick up any more ice and the remaining ice that we did have would simply falll off, according to him.

What do you think?