changing careers

[Bandit_Driver]

SBE & A300CAPT have said it correctly. Your husband has a very long road ahead of him. All the flight schools will paint a nice picture to get you in the door. Below is what I have done to get where I am today...

4 years at Western Michigan University to obtain a BS degree and all my ratings. Graduated in 1999

Finally got a CFI job in 2000 and earned about $8,000 while working there for almost a year. I have spent many nights sleeping on the office floor.

In 2001 I was hired to fly cargo aircraft shortly before 9/11. After 9/11 I ended up flying cargo for 2 1/2 years and making about 25K per year but I was flying 1000 hours a year. Again I spent many nights in our pilot lounge and on a friend's couch.

Spring of 2003 got married to a wonderful woman that works full time to help out so we can realize our dream of family and house. Which, I unfortunately cannot afford on my salary alone.

Winter of 2003 I was able to obtain a FO job for small regional airline flying the Saab 340 and I am making about 20 - 22K per year. Guess what again, due to commuting and other expenses I have spent nights in my car, on a friend's couch, and have made deals with local hotels for a reduced rate if I worked for them on the side.

I hate to say it, but many will agree, my career path and struggle is not that uncommon within the industry. Some have had it easier and harder but we all have had to sacrifice something to get where we are today.

JUST REMEMBER. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A PILOT SHORTAGE AND THERE NEVER WILL BE A PILOT SHORTAGE....

 

[StevenL]

I agree that it is great that you support your husband.

You have been given some excellent information and I don't know if I can really add to what has already been said.

What is best for the career, at your husband's age, is to train full time then instruct full time. Doing this he could be ready for that regional airline job in 2-3 years.

Alternatively, your husband could find a good FBO locally and do his training there. You probably wouldn't go into such huge debt and it will take longer. Your husband may even be able to instruct there when he is done training.

Either way you and your husband have to decide which is best for your family.

For me there was no question. I had to go the part time FBO route. I am 37, married and three children ages 5, 12 and 14. I have been at this for the past 5 years, 2 years training and 3 years instructing part time. I don't know what your finances are, but with mine I could never pay the mortgage, car payment, taxes, orthodontist, utilities, soccer, hockey, school activities, insurance, etc. and a flight training loan to boot, by instructing full time. I could put my foot down and limit what my children do, but that's not fair to them. They don't want this career, I do. I realize my children are older than yours and not all families have the same expenses as I do. But, your children will get older and you will have expenses associated with it. If you have to get a job, will you have to pay daycare? That's one expense I am glad we are done with.

My wife was supportive of this at first. She's still supportive, but not as much as she was 3 or 4 years ago. It's been a long haul on her. She is the one that has to take the kids everywhere. Soccer, orthodontist, doctor, cheerleading, drum lessons and so on. There's times she would rather I called it quits, but she is a saint and is hanging in there. My point is, it's not easy on the family when Dad is working full time and instructing part time. Not that it can't be done, it's just not easy.

Go into this with your eyes wide open. I did a pretty good sales pitch to my wife about this. I bought into some of the hype about pilot shortages. If my wife knew then what she knows now, I don't think she would have been quite as supportive. It's not that she didn't do her homework, she just believed me when I told her that I would have a job with a regional by the time I was 35, then 36 and now 38.

Best of luck to you and your husband.

 

[rausda27]

[ QUOTE ]
Just realize that after 6 mo of training, he's not going to be eligible for one of those low-paying regional jobs, he's first going to have to spend a year or two (or more) at an even lower-paying CFI job. There are no shortcuts in this industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I belive she is referring to the ASA direct track program that FlightSafety offers, after completing the 141 CIME program they interivew with ASA, get a conditional offer of employment and do a intensive IFR multi course and Level D sim training. Upon completion they go off to class with whatever hours they have in their logbook...But as was stated above, it is highly selective and they only train per ASA needs. There are absolutely no guarantees witht his program which makes it risky, but from what I have been told the pilots that complete the program at FlightSafety have a near 100 % success rate at ASA.

 

[MDPilot]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, I belive she is referring to the ASA direct track program that FlightSafety offers, after completing the 141 CIME program they interivew with ASA, get a conditional offer of employment and do a intensive IFR multi course and Level D sim training. Upon completion they go off to class with whatever hours they have in their logbook...But as was stated above, it is highly selective and they only train per ASA needs. There are absolutely no guarantees witht his program which makes it risky, but from what I have been told the pilots that complete the program at FlightSafety have a near 100 % success rate at ASA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trust me, I know what she's referring to. So after he spends 45K to get his MEI, then has a 5% chance of getting into and past the "interview", he gets a opportunity to spend another 25K in training that is needed to meet ASAs "standards", then (with about 200 hrs total under his belt) go to ASA and try and keep from washing out of ASAs RJ training. I don't call that whole process as a "sure thing." Will there be a few people who are able to make it? Yep. Would I want to bet my wife and 4 kids on it? Nope.

 

[rausda27]

I see your point, but it is never advertised as a sure thing, hence the inherent risk.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

It may never be advertised as a sure thing but the definately don't tell you the truth about the industry. They show you the up side and don't really inform you on how hard it is going to be and your odds are slightly better than becoming a pro athlete.

 

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I see the odds of you spending $40K on training and still have no job at the end at about a 90% probability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it at about a 100% probability if we're talking FlightSafety Academy, as their program costs substantially more than that.

Now, there is more than one way to skin this cat, and there are indeed shortcuts that can be taken. I'm in the same boat as the OP's hubby, minus the family. For us late-thirties career changers, time is of the essence so it's important to move as quickly as possible. The good news is that you don't need to spend a year or two instructing to get a job at a regional. Plenty of examples of that here on the boards. Yes, instructing/freight-dogging is the time-honored traditional way, but us old folks just can't afford the time. Fortunately, there are alternatives.

For training, ATP has the best deal going. $38k, in and out in 3 months. After that, Mesa Airlines runs their own pilot development program in Farmington, New Mexico. For someone with zero time or ratings, it's a 5 semester program that costs about $60k. For someone coming out of ATP with all their ratings, it's a one-semester program that costs ~$12k and guarantees an interview for an FO job with Mesa upon successful completion of the course--which itself consists of advanced instrument instruction, up to 20 hrs in a Beech Baron, a CRJ systems class and 40 hrs in a CRJ simulator. Essentially, it's a prep course for the Mesa interview and newhire training. The job's not guaranteed, but they hire about 90% of the program's graduates--it's yours to lose at the interview, in other words.

There are those who will thumb their nose at what I've suggested, and there are those who have done exactly what I've suggested and went from zero to hero in less than a year. While we're on the subject of salaries (trust me, we were--but I edited out that part out of my post), the $18-22k salaries everyone's tried to scare you with really only apply the first year, unless you accept employment with the true bottom-dwellers like Colgan, Great Lakes and the other no-name, never-heard-of-em regional airlines.

In sum, don't wast your money on FlightSafety, don't let people tell you it's impossible, and stop calling yourself "The Wife"--that's already been taken here, as has "Another Wife", so you'll have to settle for "Yet Another Wife" or something similar.

Best of luck.

 

[wifeofawannabe]

Well you've nailed one thing is that all the schools have their marketing ploy. FS's fast track is similar to the school in NM that ASA is the only one who will accept an interview before really finishing school and maybe on line for a job. Another thing they keep saying is that other small airlines are ALMOST in contracts similar to ASA.
He does realize the family comes first and we know we have to have a certain amount of money saved up for at least 3 years to live on since money will be short.
If you don't go to the academies and take the "long road" where you school along with keeping your career then once you get all of your ratings and enough hours is it difficult to get a job with an airline or cargo or whatever if you don't have the contacts like you would have at the schools?
Also since 9/11 has it been brutally hard trying to get a flying job?

 

[wifeofawannabe]

Well I won't call myself the Wife anymore!
So, Flight Safety and ATP are similar only different prices. They both say you can get an interview with either ASA (FS) and Mesa (ATP). They both probably say unless you have a screw loose there is no reason not to get hired. I hear FS is reputable (maybe because we live here in Atlanta), but is ATP as strong?

Thanks for all your help

"The Other Half" is that better?

 

[Stone Cold]

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think ATP advertises ANY guaranteed interview. They are a very reputable company, form what I have seen and heard. They have a link on their web site to most of the regional/commuter/whatever you call them web sites and list their MINIMUM hiring times.

Both companies have their good and bad points, as you probably have learned. I will say again that there is no one way to get where you want to go, but you have to make the best decision for your family and where you ultimately want to end up. There are NO guarantees in this industry.

Good luck on whichever route ya'll decide to take.

 

[ready2fly]

Best of luck to you and your family, wifeofwannabe! I couldn't have gotten as far as I have without the support of my incredible wife.

Like your husband, I was 36 when I obtained my Private. I'm currently 39 and about to wrap up my initial Flight Instructor Rating after earning my Commercial rating this past March.

Feel free to PM me with any quesitons you might have.

I kept my full-time job and flew two and three times a week. I studied pretty much every night that I wasn't flying and on most of my lunches at work.

It can be done, but know that it will take a LOT of his time.

Best of luck!

R2F

 

[kellwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't go to the academies and take the "long road" where you school along with keeping your career then once you get all of your ratings and enough hours is it difficult to get a job with an airline or cargo or whatever if you don't have the contacts like you would have at the schools?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the academies operate under what is known as Part 141. It's an FAA certification based on specific curriculums and hours. It's essentially the FAA's approval to use a more focused program to get done in fewer hours. If you go to your local flight school and keep the full time job, you'll most likely be training under what is known as Part 61. This is the traditional method, and you get to work at your own pace and make your own schedule. As far as getting a job afterwards, outside of the individual flight schools (unless there is a "bridge" program) it's all about how many hours you have. Honestly, that Part 61 guy is gonna have more hours than the Part 141 guy. So, not only is it possible to land a freight job, traffic watch, banner tow, etc (IF you can find the jobs, that's the tricky part), you could probably acquire them faster. I thought about switching the Part 141, but decided against it. I've been very happy with the training at my local flight school, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

I went the 141 route and then instucted in the 61 enviroment. Yes 141, does allow for obataining your ratings with lower times but I have seen very few people obtain the ratings at the reduced times. The only advantage that I see to the 141 schools is that they teach you much more than flying the airplane. If you go to a good 141 school you will come out with a better knowlege of Regs, Aircraft Systems, and other areas of flying that most 61 schools breeze past.

Good luck in what ever route you choose. It will be a battle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif but it is winnable if you truely want to become an airline pilot. Every pilot I know is here because they don't except defeat or no for an answer...

Good Luck !!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[aloft]

[ QUOTE ]
So, Flight Safety and ATP are similar only different prices. They both say you can get an interview with either ASA (FS) and Mesa (ATP). They both probably say unless you have a screw loose there is no reason not to get hired. I hear FS is reputable (maybe because we live here in Atlanta), but is ATP as strong?

[/ QUOTE ]

FlightSafety is probably a better program but it's much much longer in duration and much more expensive. ATP is quite reputable as well, though some people find it hard to believe that you can earn all your ratings in 3 months and still retain anything. ATP hires most of their career program graduates as instructors, and most guys who do that have moved on to a regional within a year or so. ATP does NOT guarantee you an interview anywhere, though their management busts balls to get their instructors interviews and have been highly successful doing so (a very large number have gone to Chautauqua in particular over the last couple years).

The program that guarantees you the interview at Mesa with only 300 hrs total time is their MAPD PACE program. The key is the hours requirement--unless you serve an internship at an airline, no airline will touch you with only 300 hrs. Both the full MAPD and the abbreviated PACE program help mold you into what Mesa Airlines wants specifically; thus, you're a known quantity in terms of skills and knowledge. It's also a win for them because they get a greater return out of their initial training investment in you since you can't upgrade to captain until you've got the 1500 hrs required for the FAA ATP rating.

For someone your hubby's age (like me), I recommend the ATP/PACE combo simply for the time benefit; in less than a year he could be hired on as a jet FO at Mesa while the people who went the FlightSafety/Delta Connection Academy route still have months of training ahead of them. This is an industry where seniority trumps all, and the sooner your hubby can get on an airline's seniority list someplace, the better off he--and thus, your family--will be. The ATP/PACE combo is most direct line between where he is now and where he wants to be.


[ QUOTE ]
"The Other Half" is that better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe even "The Better Half"! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Ecl!pse]

Wifeofawannabe

Welcome to the boards! If you begin to question the flight school, I would highly suggest you get in contact with MQAAORD(sorry Amber, wanna help her!). She did her Private Pilot License training in 4 weeks at an airport with a training facility. If your husband is up for doubling up on the flying and studying, he can accomplish his ratings pretty quick, and it may cost less to go the airport FBO route. Just trying to offer some more help!

 

[aviator]

As an instructor at FSI mabye I can offer some advice. First off staking the future of a family on the ASA program may not be a smart decsion. The program is highly competitive and very subject to ASA's current needs. Right now a small number a canidates are moving through (they interviewed over 2 years ago, by the way) and a wait list is already in place. The future of the program is in no way set in stone, it can and has dissolved over night in the past. What 1 company's hiring practices will be by the time your husband finishes his CIME is anyones quess. I would suggest having a plan B, C, D, and E if ASA doesn't work out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif