American Eagle pilots finally stand up

[Seggy]

OK, this will be a stupid question. Since I've already flamed myself by calling it stupid, you can simply answer and not attempt snark.

I understand that changing the BK rules would limit scope erosion during that process. Didn't, and hasn't, most of the erosion of scope occurred BY mainline pilots, and not in a BK situation, but in return for 30 pieces of silver or something?

That is actually a good question.

Most of the scope clauses were eroded after 9/11 while the legacies were in bankruptcy. At United larger RJs were introduced while they were in bankruptcy, Compass was started at Northwest (and Mesaba was given CRJ-900s) while they were in bankruptcy, and Delta was also in bankruptcy.

 

[pete2800]

OK, this will be a stupid question. Since I've already flamed myself by calling it stupid, you can simply answer and not attempt snark.

I understand that changing the BK rules would limit scope erosion during that process. Didn't, and hasn't, most of the erosion of scope occurred BY mainline pilots, and not in a BK situation, but in return for 30 pieces of silver or something?

Most, yes. However, it seems that recently the mainline guys have started actually caring for scope. The last Delta contract is debatable, but recently management has had to find other ways to erode scope. Continental had strong scope, but by merging them with UAL, management was able to re-negotiate to be more in line with UAL's policy. AMR had to use bankruptcy to get it done.

Alaska's TA is the glaring exception. Yikes. They didn't even get much silver, if I understand correctly.

 

[Stone Cold]

That is actually a good question.

Most of the scope clauses were eroded after 9/11 while the legacies were in bankruptcy. At United larger RJs were introduced while they were in bankruptcy, Compass was started at Northwest (and Mesaba was given CRJ-900s) while they were in bankruptcy, and Delta was also in bankruptcy.

Um, actually, scope started getting eroded before 9/11. It was when the RJ's were introduced. It was exacerbated by the post 9/11 bankruptcies, yes, but scope was long before that. Just from an outside perspective that's been watching the industry since the 1980's...

 

[Seggy]

Um, actually, scope started getting eroded before 9/11. It was when the RJ's were introduced. It was exacerbated by the post 9/11 bankruptcies, yes, but scope was long before that. Just from an outside perspective that's been watching the industry since the 1980's...

I agree, but if you look at it, the 50 seat RJs that were ordered before 9/11 are already obsolete. The larger ones forced after 9/11 aren't.

 

[pullup]

The Eagle guys are pretty 'juiced up' right now as their MEC told management to pound sand. Management wanted MORE concessions AFTER the Eagle pilots recently voted in concessions. I am not an Eagle pilot and respect the view that their pilots are taking right now, putting it on everyone else to hold the line.

However, practically looking at it, if management comes back to the Eagle guys and says, 'ok, we are reassigning your flying'. Then what? Some guys will move on to places much better. Some guys are talking now how they 'will leave the industry' and some will. Then others (and I fear a majority) who say that will leave the industry will find that other jobs suck or they can't find work and then they find themselves applying at other regionals who took the Eagle flying at a lower rate than Management was asking for in the 2nd ask for concessions. Did the Eagle guys really 'show them' in the long term? What is the 50 year old RJ Captain based in DFW making $120,000 a year going to do? Once again, while I admire what the Eagle MEC did, I have a feeling that the majority are going to get a cold, cruel sense of reality in a short amount of time.

The only way to fix this cyclical problem is to change the bankruptcy laws. With the laws we have in place now, it allows management to fix their costs to easily (American had something like 4 BILLION in cash going into bankruptcy) instead of managing properly. I can go on a political rant now and pilots, but I will save that for a later time or let ATN_Pilot do that.

Just so I am understanding correctly...a pilot group stood up for what they wanted and you are now saying it was a stupid thing to do? If this was the wrong course of action and the best way was to go after bankruptcy laws, has anyone pursued that yet? If so (I haven't heard of this yet), what have the results been?

 

[Seggy]

The other thing that would help WacoFan allow regional pilots to declare victory, is for the majors to be fully responsible if a regional flying for that major has an incident or crash.

 

[Stone Cold]

I agree, but if you look at it, the 50 seat RJs that were ordered before 9/11 are already obsolete. The larger ones forced after 9/11 aren't.

Okay, but you said 9/11 bankruptcies caused scope erosion, and that is absolutely false. Yes, it continued it, but scope erosion happened long before that. I believe the ~50% domestic flying on RJ's happened while most "regionals" were flying 50 seaters. It's been a while that this has been the case, to my understanding.

 

[WacoFan]

The other thing that would help WacoFan allow regional pilots to declare victory, is for the majors to be fully responsible if a regional flying for that major has an incident or crash.

Just so my opinion is on the record. ATN_Pilot, surreal1221 notably have said that salaries as a function of cost per seat mile is a negligible figure. Although they never showed data (third party) I believe them on this. I also agree with your post above - CAL should have to eat a huge part of the liability of any of their partners, DAL and AA the same. You kind of parse a little talking about "large RJ's" above 50 seats.

My stance would be any RJ - actually anything above a Beech 1900. Anything with more than 19 seats is not a "regional". The term "regional" would cease to exist actually and they would go back to "commuters". If I had an airline that's how it would be and I'd try selling to that. Something like "At WacoFan Air we don't outsource our flying on smaller capacity routes to airlines that might have different standards for equipment and employees".

 

[Bumblebee]

Right, If I purchase my wife a ticket from United, then they are responsible for determining how she gets there and if something happens for that as well. They can go after their contractor for negligence just like I would go after my General Contractor for a breach or damages from negligence and they would have to go after the sub.

 

[WacoFan]

right, I I purchase my wife ticket from United, then they are responsible for determining how she gets there and if something happens for that as well. They can go after their contractor for negligence just like I would go after my General Contractor for a breach or damages from negligence and they would have to go after the sub.

Bingo. CAL should have been on the hook for Colgan. CAL hired them. I hire someone, even as an independent contractor, I'm largely responsible for what they do and liable.

 

[Seggy]

Right, If I purchase my wife a ticket from United, then they are responsible for determining how she gets there and if something happens for that as well. They can go after their contractor for negligence just like I would go after my General Contractor for a breach or damages from negligence and they would have to go after the sub.

But that is not the law now.

As a matter of fact, Delta is the major most on the hook for the Colgan accident and that is because of Northwest!

 

[Bumblebee]

But that is not the law now.

As a matter of fact, Delta is the major most on the hook for the Colgan accident and that is because of Northwest!

I get that, but it should be the law.

 

[Seggy]

I get that, but it should be the law.

Yep!

 

[Bumblebee]

hey look all three of us agree! whooo hoooo!

 

[WacoFan]

We do agree, but that leaves the question at hand. Yes, carriers will exploit BK to ease scope. Yes, senior mainline guys will sell scope for a few more bucks even when not in BK. Yes, pilots will sell out other pilots to further their own careers. All of these things are as they exist now.

So what is the fix from here? You can't put the genie back in the bottle. I remember when the "B-scale" stuff first started coming up and although I didn't understand it at the time I knew my Grandpa was pissed about it (1953-1984 TWA) and said it was the beginning of the end and at that point started aggressively discouraging me from flying for the airlines. Regionals aren't even a "B-scale". They are like a D or and F scale. I believe their existence negatively impacts mainline wages and work rules. So - do you simply work for the disease to go into remission, not really improving the damage done so far but stopping its spread? Or, can you cure the actual disease?

 

[Stone Cold]

For the record, the 14,000 hour Russian guy I flew with this rotation said Russia has officially adopted the law allowing foreigners to be hired by Russian airlines. They are hoping to hire 200 per year. I told him they better pay more than they pay the Russians (he's a former Russian airline guy, and he and our Russian CP underbid me and the other American pilot, to get the jobs) to attract people to go fly for their airlines. He also said the global pilot shortage is here, so there ya go.

Of course, this is the same guy who got scared of TS in the area coming back into Moscow on descent, at 2000 fpm, with a -1.5 tilt, painting Moscow. He couldn't even figure out where Moscow was until I showed him on the moving map exactly where it was...over beers, a good story. That's all I'll post on line.

 

[BobDDuck]

Of course, this is the same guy who got scared of TS in the area coming back into Moscow on descent, at 2000 fpm, with a -1.5 tilt, painting Moscow. He couldn't even figure out where Moscow was until I showed him on the moving map exactly where it was...over beers, a good story. That's all I'll post on line.

As a brand new FO in the RJ I flew with a captain that did that. PIT-DAY and he painted Columbus so we deviated south until he painted Cincy and asked to deviate north (even though it was clear and a million and I could see the beacons for CMH, DAY, CVG, CLE and IND). He retired about 3 months later.

I think Eagle did a good thing here. I think in the end it may hurt them. The only way it will be worth it is if the next airline in line to face this request from management (and I'm banking on either AWAC or XJet/ASA) tells management to pound sand as well.

You can't Comair everybody.

 

[WhatRJ]

As a brand new FO in the RJ I flew with a captain that did that. PIT-DAY and he painted Columbus so we deviated south until he painted Cincy and asked to deviate north (even though it was clear and a million and I could see the beacons for CMH, DAY, CVG, CLE and IND). He retired about 3 months later

Little deviation here. For the benefit of the airline noobs out there (like myself), what are you referring to when you say you 'painted' somewhere?

 

[z987k]

Little deviation here. For the benefit of the airline noobs out there (like myself), what are you referring to when you say you 'painted' somewhere?

With the onboard wx radar.

 

[WhatRJ]

With the onboard wx radar.

Oh ok thanks