American Eagle pilots finally stand up
- Thread starter FlySooner9
- Start date
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
I think it's easy to second-guess the Eagle MEC here, but you're missing the human factors in the politics that underlie a lot of this.
This and the past MEC chair have always supported 'collaborative discussion' with the company because openly talking always seemed smarter than an adversarial engagement.
So now, after a long and hard-wrought effort to get a concessionary contract in BK, the man comes back with his hand out, asking for a B scale. Here's why a B scale means things get worse no matter what else you lose:
First, who would want to sign on for the lowest wages ever in these size jets yet? Even the young and the hungry will have to have at or near ATP logbooks- with associated cost investment. Everybody's hiring. Eagle would wither from lack of new blood. That'd undermine the other end as well- nobody new, nobody old can leave. The end result is that nobody flows to AA, nobody upgrades, and Eagle shrinks. It's very short-sighted. So even if we only thought we were eating our young, we all suffer. The opposing theory isn't much better- say every pilot out there gets Eagle fever and comes here. With pilots cheaper than ever, and senior pilots resetting pay on themselves by flowing, growth at Eagle at the expense of mainline is further exacerbated. The entire reason the 1500 rule gives leverage at the bargaining table is because it helps normalize costs of pilots at any tier of the industry. Any time we give ground on that, we voluntarily cut our own throats.
Not to mention... The jets going elsewhere? Like the dozens or so jets from SKW/XJT at DFW? Or the RFP Republic already got? I'd be curious to see the 175's in Eagle colors in ORD. Are they even up there?
I think this purchase is for those same airplanes and the previous RFP was a bluff. From what I hear, Republic can't staff the flights it has and is getting sued because of it. As for SKW, their airframe allotment and/or staffing makes them drop the ball on the flying they bit off at DFW so often we fly 9xxx flight numbers all the time to pick up their slack.
So where's this gonna go? Pinnacle? Mesa? Can pilots with loans and stomachs to fill even afford to work there? And there's one other major point- at the end of the day, the overlords in Centerport love control. I can't say I see that changing.
I really don't think that the MEC did this just to thumb their nose at the company. I've seen them first hand game out all the possibilities of something. While some of the personalities involved might not rub others the right way, most of these people are very smart, capable decision makers, and the hard lessons learned by Letter 3 and other things still sit fresh in their minds. They also know that this is a *dangerous* precedent in the regional ranks, and if others follow suit, regional pilot pay will be pushed to the breaking point... But not before it further erodes the amount of mainline flying.
Even if it DID mean the new jets go elsewhere, the minute an Eagle pilot gets kicked to the street it triggers a variety of flow accelerations. All of this was engineered by our MEC.
Wait and see. For the first time in a decade the MEC has the chance to do more than just stop the bleeding.
This and the past MEC chair have always supported 'collaborative discussion' with the company because openly talking always seemed smarter than an adversarial engagement.
So now, after a long and hard-wrought effort to get a concessionary contract in BK, the man comes back with his hand out, asking for a B scale. Here's why a B scale means things get worse no matter what else you lose:
First, who would want to sign on for the lowest wages ever in these size jets yet? Even the young and the hungry will have to have at or near ATP logbooks- with associated cost investment. Everybody's hiring. Eagle would wither from lack of new blood. That'd undermine the other end as well- nobody new, nobody old can leave. The end result is that nobody flows to AA, nobody upgrades, and Eagle shrinks. It's very short-sighted. So even if we only thought we were eating our young, we all suffer. The opposing theory isn't much better- say every pilot out there gets Eagle fever and comes here. With pilots cheaper than ever, and senior pilots resetting pay on themselves by flowing, growth at Eagle at the expense of mainline is further exacerbated. The entire reason the 1500 rule gives leverage at the bargaining table is because it helps normalize costs of pilots at any tier of the industry. Any time we give ground on that, we voluntarily cut our own throats.
Not to mention... The jets going elsewhere? Like the dozens or so jets from SKW/XJT at DFW? Or the RFP Republic already got? I'd be curious to see the 175's in Eagle colors in ORD. Are they even up there?
I think this purchase is for those same airplanes and the previous RFP was a bluff. From what I hear, Republic can't staff the flights it has and is getting sued because of it. As for SKW, their airframe allotment and/or staffing makes them drop the ball on the flying they bit off at DFW so often we fly 9xxx flight numbers all the time to pick up their slack.
So where's this gonna go? Pinnacle? Mesa? Can pilots with loans and stomachs to fill even afford to work there? And there's one other major point- at the end of the day, the overlords in Centerport love control. I can't say I see that changing.
I really don't think that the MEC did this just to thumb their nose at the company. I've seen them first hand game out all the possibilities of something. While some of the personalities involved might not rub others the right way, most of these people are very smart, capable decision makers, and the hard lessons learned by Letter 3 and other things still sit fresh in their minds. They also know that this is a *dangerous* precedent in the regional ranks, and if others follow suit, regional pilot pay will be pushed to the breaking point... But not before it further erodes the amount of mainline flying.
Even if it DID mean the new jets go elsewhere, the minute an Eagle pilot gets kicked to the street it triggers a variety of flow accelerations. All of this was engineered by our MEC.
Wait and see. For the first time in a decade the MEC has the chance to do more than just stop the bleeding.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Just to add, if you don't know what you're doing with weather radar, if you have the "tilt", or angle the radar is looking at correctly, you will "paint" the city you are going into. It will look like a very bad storm, but it is really just the city you are looking at. The trick is being able to differentiate the city from an actual storm over the city, and it takes, oh, I don't know, charter flying in Florida for a couple of years, along with Caravan flying in the Midwest for a couple of years to get a good idea of what you are doing.
I am by far no expert on radar, but have learned radar theory in the Navy, and read as much as possible about it, topped with the above experiences. Do a search for wheelsup and radar theory for a very good discussion on the topic.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Yep!
Yep!
Unfortunately you also have the nonunion carriers, regionals with a weak union, and other carriers who may be in bankruptcy or face liquidation say 'yes' here.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
While I hope it works out as you described, I am really concerned how this will play out.
Regardless, I respect the fact that the Eagle MEC took a stance.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
It'd be ideal. As usual, there are a lot of variables in play. They did do one thing absolutely right though- they recognized the precedent and set an example.
From here on out, any regional carrier pilot group that takes a pay cut willingly to get new jets is deliberately undercutting their and everybody else's future.
The line has been drawn. Let's hope nobody crosses.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
What's to stop the company from Comairing Eagle before the majority of the flows have taken place? You flow a few hundred and then make the company to away, sending the aircraft to other carriers as fast as possible?
Cut throat? Yes. Good business sense so as to get lower costs and show others that you're not screwing around? Maybe.
SrFnFly227
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, there are two things that need to happen in order to completely reshape this industry. The first has already been stated. As Seggy said, the majors have to be made fully responsible for any incident/accident that happens at a regional. This will force them to care about more than just the price point of the contractor. It will force them to care about the experience, training, attitude, and overall culture that comes along with that price point.
The second thing that has to happen is the removal of longevity incentives that entice people to make careers at the regionals. Start FOs at a decent wage so that you can get good people in the door. Keep CA pay right around the current fourth or fifth year pay so as to encourage people to leave. Start people with 12 or 13 days off per month, but take away the schedules that have 19 or 20. You could also keep 401K match at a modest level and keep PTO at one or two weeks no matter how many years the pilot has been with the company. I really feel that the minute people can have a better life at a regional airline than at a major is the minute that that particular airline begins to fail. And this is where I tie my response back in to this thread.
Every response so far has congratulated the Eagle MEC for turning down what was more than likely a really crappy offer. While yes, it is a great thing that a pilot group finally said no more, we also have no idea what the actual details in the offer were. We all assume that the "B-Scale" that was offered was for lower pay rates across the board. What if, and this is a huge what if, the "B-Scale" that was rejected was actually just a removal of the longevity pay scale? What if the offer was actually for all FOs to make $40/hr and all CAs to make $65/hr? Get people in the door and then encourage them to leave. Would that really be that bad?
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Two problems with that.
First, you're assuming that everybody can go somewhere else after a few years topped out at mediocre pay and QOL. The numbers just don't support that. Even with all the forecasted movement coming in the future, not everybody will make it to the big show.
Secondly, by making contract lift even cheaper you are going to be pushing the network carriers to use more of it, hence reducing the number of good paying mainline jobs.
First, you're assuming that everybody can go somewhere else after a few years topped out at mediocre pay and QOL. The numbers just don't support that. Even with all the forecasted movement coming in the future, not everybody will make it to the big show.
Secondly, by making contract lift even cheaper you are going to be pushing the network carriers to use more of it, hence reducing the number of good paying mainline jobs.
eightballfreight
Mission accomplished
AMR Corporation (OTCBB: AAMRQ) (NYSE: LCC) reports Q2 net profit of $357 million, from $95 million reported in the same period last year. Total operating revs of $6.45 billion were flat from last year.
Second quarter 2013 consolidated and mainline capacity were both up approximately 1.1 percent year-over-over, while consolidated and mainline passenger revenue per available seat mile (PRASM) were lower by 0.9 percent and 0.1 percent, respectively.
Tough to ask for concessions with a straight face while profitable.
Second quarter 2013 consolidated and mainline capacity were both up approximately 1.1 percent year-over-over, while consolidated and mainline passenger revenue per available seat mile (PRASM) were lower by 0.9 percent and 0.1 percent, respectively.
Tough to ask for concessions with a straight face while profitable.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Anyone who wonders how someone can declare bankruptcy with cash on hand with a straight face should talk to Mesaba pilots about the shamruptcy. It's very eye opening.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Everyday I am reminded of the paper Tiger ALPA really is. Huge disappointment. And yet, here I am as an idealist trade unionist attempting to convince folks to not accept clear concessions, with nothing in return...much less with something in return. SNAFU at a few MECs right now.
And WacoFan, love you man, and maybe it was four years ago, but I really don't ever recall focussing CASM and pilot salaries with you. My apology ahead of time if you do find a quote from way back when.
To be clear, from my POV, the Eagle MEC acted in the best interest of not only their pilots, but the rest of the regional pilot groups.
And WacoFan, love you man, and maybe it was four years ago, but I really don't ever recall focussing CASM and pilot salaries with you. My apology ahead of time if you do find a quote from way back when.
To be clear, from my POV, the Eagle MEC acted in the best interest of not only their pilots, but the rest of the regional pilot groups.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Are you talking about the Pinnacle MEC?
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
Planes don't start flying until 8/1. PIT will do initial flying and ORD opens as a Republic base in September. First bids for 60 pilots already out. First plane landed in Indy this morning from Brazil. 2-3 month until we reach 47 aircraft. Staffing is so-so for the EMB's, not so much for the Q's. The "getting sued" part is a silly rumor.
Here's a pic our lovely management posted to our company propaganda website after plane landed in Mecca.
Attachments
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Yuck.
I always knew there'd be a day when the was a -175 with 'Eagle' on the side. I just never knew it would be at somebody else's company. That's the part that really hurts- the ho-ing out of the Eagle name. Eagle pilots are a somewhat odd but proud bunch, we believe in what we do. Consider how much shame some of our former 'Connection' affiliates brought to the operation it stings to see this done.
That said, I think this is really more about whipsawing Eagle better. Management knows we're the battleground now. Like I said back in 2008- 'welcome to the rest of your careers.'
That said- I think the big buy will really be for CRJ-700/900's. Common type for us, and we have to replace smaller airframes. I think waiving the -175 again is a feint.
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
The rest of this post is pretty good, but this paragraph is very out of touch.
True there are a group of people at every regional that have made the decision to stay because of the reasons you mentioned. But the vast majority want to get in and get out as quick as possible. The challenge currently is that for the last 5 years or so, there has been pretty much nowhere to go.
In fact, if you look at the pay rates at a major, it really only takes a year or two of first officer pay to move back to roughly where you were financially for all but the super senior captains. Throw in better work rules in most cases, your QOL will almost certainly be better at a major. Only thing you can't really control at that point is weekends off.
You make it sound like everybody is so incredibly happy at a regional that we all just want to stay. While life at the top is pretty good, I will never make it there even if there is absolutely no more movement between now and the time I'm 65. Before it came to that, I'd probably jump off something high.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Seggy said:
Lol...not even close.
