American Eagle pilots finally stand up

Out of curiosity, where is the attrition going too? In other words, the guys that are leaving RAH...are they getting out of the game, making lateral moves or moving on up?
 
I know at Eagle we have had guys go to UAL, Spirit, US Air, AA, Virgin, and a couple make the lateral move to another regional. Some are also getting out all together. Few went corporate too.
 
Out of curiosity, where is the attrition going too? In other words, the guys that are leaving RAH...are they getting out of the game, making lateral moves or moving on up?

I only know of one going to another regional... Mostly bc he is a West Coaster. A couple have left the industry, couple corporate, then the rest are spread out between, Airways, Atlas, Blue, United, Spirit, and hopefully DL soon. We have 3,000 pilots though so I can't keep up with everyones movement.

4,000 and 1k jet seem to be the bare min to move on.
 
I must say, we have been (collectively) convinced that pilot wages and benefits have the greatest impact on the financial success of an airline.

Those who believe such have been fooled and need to wise up. There are far more economic elements that drive the financial success of a company, to a much greater extent than pilot wages and benefits/contract value.
 
While I respect the MEC's position, I have a feeling a bunch of Eagle pilots are going to be at other airlines flying their former planes for less money in a few years thinking, 'was this really a victory'???????
 
While I respect the MEC's position, I have a feeling a bunch of Eagle pilots are going to be at other airlines flying their former planes for less money in a few years thinking, 'was this really a victory'???????

How would you engineer a victory? How would you even define "victory"? Serious questions.

In the outsourced flying world all participants are driving down the mythical "bar" so to speak. That is why I've always thought it kind of silly when one group of outsourced labor criticizes another group of outsourced labor - they are all part of the same tumor. It would seem that the only "victory" as recognized in a macro sense would be the complete dismantling of the regional system and all flying is done on mainline carriers. I am curious as to what you feel a "Victory" would be, and then as the follow how you would engineer your definition of "victory".
 
How would you engineer a victory? How would you even define "victory"? Serious questions.

In the outsourced flying world all participants are driving down the mythical "bar" so to speak. That is why I've always thought it kind of silly when one group of outsourced labor criticizes another group of outsourced labor - they are all part of the same tumor. It would seem that the only "victory" as recognized in a macro sense would be the complete dismantling of the regional system and all flying is done on mainline carriers. I am curious as to what you feel a "Victory" would be, and then as the follow how you would engineer your definition of "victory".

Huh? Do you really care? It is not like you have any real interest in this fight.
 
How would you engineer a victory? How would you even define "victory"? Serious questions.

In the outsourced flying world all participants are driving down the mythical "bar" so to speak. That is why I've always thought it kind of silly when one group of outsourced labor criticizes another group of outsourced labor - they are all part of the same tumor. It would seem that the only "victory" as recognized in a macro sense would be the complete dismantling of the regional system and all flying is done on mainline carriers. I am curious as to what you feel a "Victory" would be, and then as the follow how you would engineer your definition of "victory".

I've never liked the "THEY TURK ER JERBS!" that one outsourced group does when another outsourced group underbids them by ten cents per block hour and secures the flying. The flying 'belongs' to whomever has their name painted on the side of the airplane.

(We are Inc. Your airline's flying, routes, gates, and aircraft will be added to our own. You will adapt to serve us. You will be acquired. Resistance is futile. :sarcasm: )
 
Huh? Do you really care? It is not like you have any real interest in this fight.

Yeah, I actually do. And I've asked questions, particularly regarding union things and mostly of ATN_Pilot in this forum before. And, I asked you a pretty direct question, in a non-snarky way primarily due to your union experience as well as the post you made in which it's pretty clear you must have a strong opinion about the topic. So, you respond with this. From the guy who constantly criticizes people if they don't "post outside the lav" such as pullup and TheFlyingTurkey and others. Great job.
 
How would you engineer a victory? How would you even define "victory"? Serious questions.

In the outsourced flying world all participants are driving down the mythical "bar" so to speak. That is why I've always thought it kind of silly when one group of outsourced labor criticizes another group of outsourced labor - they are all part of the same tumor. It would seem that the only "victory" as recognized in a macro sense would be the complete dismantling of the regional system and all flying is done on mainline carriers. I am curious as to what you feel a "Victory" would be, and then as the follow how you would engineer your definition of "victory".

FWIW, I thought that this was actually an interesting point. Not being in the industry (yet...) and not being well-versed with the minutia of 121, the question posed here is something I would be interested in hearing some educated opinion about.

Not sure what about this question deserved the snark that it received.
 
FWIW, I thought that this was actually an interesting point. Not being in the industry (yet...) and not being well-versed with the minutia of 121, the question posed here is something I would be interested in hearing some educated opinion about.

Not sure what about this question deserved the snark that it received.

Yeah. He's a big deal with Varney now, no need to even give the appearance of being anything but an ass, he's got his career job I guess.
 
How would you engineer a victory? How would you even define "victory"? Serious questions.

In the outsourced flying world all participants are driving down the mythical "bar" so to speak. That is why I've always thought it kind of silly when one group of outsourced labor criticizes another group of outsourced labor - they are all part of the same tumor. It would seem that the only "victory" as recognized in a macro sense would be the complete dismantling of the regional system and all flying is done on mainline carriers. I am curious as to what you feel a "Victory" would be, and then as the follow how you would engineer your definition of "victory".

The Eagle guys are pretty 'juiced up' right now as their MEC told management to pound sand. Management wanted MORE concessions AFTER the Eagle pilots recently voted in concessions. I am not an Eagle pilot and respect the view that their pilots are taking right now, putting it on everyone else to hold the line.

However, practically looking at it, if management comes back to the Eagle guys and says, 'ok, we are reassigning your flying'. Then what? Some guys will move on to places much better. Some guys are talking now how they 'will leave the industry' and some will. Then others (and I fear a majority) who say that will leave the industry will find that other jobs suck or they can't find work and then they find themselves applying at other regionals who took the Eagle flying at a lower rate than Management was asking for in the 2nd ask for concessions. Did the Eagle guys really 'show them' in the long term? What is the 50 year old RJ Captain based in DFW making $120,000 a year going to do? Once again, while I admire what the Eagle MEC did, I have a feeling that the majority are going to get a cold, cruel sense of reality in a short amount of time.

The only way to fix this cyclical problem is to change the bankruptcy laws. With the laws we have in place now, it allows management to fix their costs to easily (American had something like 4 BILLION in cash going into bankruptcy) instead of managing properly. I can go on a political rant now and pilots, but I will save that for a later time or let ATN_Pilot do that.
 
FWIW, I thought that this was actually an interesting point. Not being in the industry (yet...) and not being well-versed with the minutia of 121, the question posed here is something I would be interested in hearing some educated opinion about.

Answered.

Not sure what about this question deserved the snark that it received.

We have a history :)
 
The Eagle guys are pretty 'juiced up' right now as their MEC told management to pound sand. Management wanted MORE concessions AFTER the Eagle pilots recently voted in concessions. I am not an Eagle pilot and respect the view that their pilots are taking right now, putting it on everyone else to hold the line.

However, practically looking at it, if management comes back to the Eagle guys and says, 'ok, we are reassigning your flying'. Then what? Some guys will move on to places much better. Some guys are talking now how they 'will leave the industry' and some will. Then others (and I fear a majority) who say that will leave the industry will find that other jobs suck or they can't find work and then they find themselves applying at other regionals who took the Eagle flying at a lower rate than Management was asking for in the 2nd ask for concessions. Did the Eagle guys really 'show them' in the long term? What is the 50 year old RJ Captain based in DFW making $120,000 a year going to do? Once again, while I admire what the Eagle MEC did, I have a feeling that the majority are going to get a cold, cruel sense of reality in a short amount of time.

The only way to fix this cyclical problem is to change the bankruptcy laws. With the laws we have in place now, it allows management to fix their costs to easily (American had something like 4 BILLION in cash going into bankruptcy) instead of managing properly. I can go on a political rant now and pilots, but I will save that for a later time or let ATN_Pilot do that.

There is no doubt that AMR was a horribly managed company and one with an abnormal amount of, for lack of a better term, "corporate arrogance". With that said, even changing BK laws, which I support, would not change the business model of outsourcing that regionals represent. So many on this thread will lambaste Walmart and part of that is overseas goods and outsourced labor, etc. These same people don their "RJ/SJS uniform" of choice and then proceed to undercut an entire profession.

Edit: Not a complete blast on the RJ industry here - I guess a better way to put it would be this:
If you agree that outsourcing is fundamentally wrong or deleterious to airline careers, then how can you somehow modify the regionals to mitigate the damage? The genie is already out of the bottle, so how do you limit the damage?
 
There is no doubt that AMR was a horribly managed company and one with an abnormal amount of, for lack of a better term, "corporate arrogance". With that said, even changing BK laws, which I support, would not change the business model of outsourcing that regionals represent. So many on this thread will lambaste Walmart and part of that is overseas goods and outsourced labor, etc. These same people don their "RJ/SJS uniform" of choice and then proceed to undercut an entire profession.

It would change the business model as the mainline scope language wouldn't be able to be threatened by poor management. Notice how E-175s are in play now for American? That is thanks to the AMR Bankruptcy.
 
It would change the business model as the mainline scope language wouldn't be able to be threatened by poor management. Notice how E-175s are in play now for American? That is thanks to the AMR Bankruptcy.

OK, this will be a stupid question. Since I've already flamed myself by calling it stupid, you can simply answer and not attempt snark.

I understand that changing the BK rules would limit scope erosion during that process. Didn't, and hasn't, most of the erosion of scope occurred BY mainline pilots, and not in a BK situation, but in return for 30 pieces of silver or something?
 
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