Broken Airnet Crew in DAY - Pilot Pushing

[ppragman]

Hey look there goes the point right over Seggy's head.

:yeahthat:


Look, I'm not saying don't write up something that's unsafe, I'm saying don't ground the plane and waste precious time and money for a yoke clip, or sticker. Its give and take in this industry, take take take take take, and you wonder why companies are going out of business all the time. Use your head, be rational, think for yourself.

 

[mikecweb]

Above all else. If you are signing the line do whatever the hell you want. If someone else is signing their line don't judge their decisions.
I would never fly with an inop item that adversely affects the safety of my airplane and crew.

 

[minitour]

If someone else is signing their line don't judge their decisions.

But what else are we to do on teh internets?anic:

-mini

 

[mikecweb]

But what else are we to do on teh internets?anic:

-mini

Al Gore invented the internet for one thing...Porn.
All these news/forums/networking sites just take up unnecessary bandwidth.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

:yeahthat:


Look, I'm not saying don't write up something that's unsafe, I'm saying don't ground the plane and waste precious time and money for a yoke clip, or sticker. Its give and take in this industry, take take take take take, and you wonder why companies are going out of business all the time. Use your head, be rational, think for yourself.

While I agree with you in principle, legally, you are wrong. Can you get away with it? More than likely. But what happens when you declare an emergency because of something else unrelated, and the feds come sniffing around?

It is the same with falsifying logbooks. Sure, you will probably get away with it, but when someone starts sniffing around, you are leaving yourself out to dry.

If it is legal, fly it. If not, find a way to make it legal. If you can't, sorry.

 

[ackeight]

Let me show you something that may help you make your decision if you think something isn't so important. Right now you may not think a CHT is important when your on the ground, but it could save your life.

If no one is familiar with this story let me remind some people. Someone on the board (to be remained nameless), had some engine problems and did not think much about it, just some sputtering and fuel gauges were indicating WAY below what they should be. After scanning engine instruments the oil pressure and temperatures were indicating normal, BUT the CHT was OFF THE CHART! ENGINE FIRE! This fire was contained within the cowling and could not be seen yet because the airflow was keeping it relatively small. The aircraft was immediatley landed and this is what happend. If it were a multi the fuel cutoff could have been pulled, but wouldn't have made it to an aiport. The CHT allowed the pilot to know what was exactly what was wrong, while the other "more important" instruments said everything was normal.

Think about that the next time you don't think something is important on an airplane. Use some common sense.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

pilot pushing can also happen at other levels. If you're sick a certain number of times (even with legit documentation) you can get a written warning letter in your PRIA. Talk about trying to make someone fly when they're sick because of a fear of getting written up for it.

Sick calls should not appear on PRIA documents. If your company attaches them to PRIA documentation and it affects your future employment, then talk to a labor attorney.

In my years in this profession. I never saw any pilot pushing when the problem was legitimate. BUt I did see many times where the issue was BS and the real problem was something else (the pilot didn't want to fly that day, or because he felt his skills weren't up to dealing with what needed to be done).

I also heard a lot of "I'm not comfortable with that." That's BS. An intelligent, college educated, part 121 professional aircrew member ought to be able to clearly explain exactly what the problem is, not call forth unspecified horrors from the imagination. You're not paid to be comfortable. You're paid to do a job. If you can't do the job, you ought to be able to explain why.

As far as sick calls go, again, some were legitimately sick. And there were others who called in sick because it was a holiday, or because weather, ATC, or pax loads caused a problem with the commute. Those guys are the reason that legitimate sick calls are questioned.

Thomas Jefferson said "Rigid integrity is the first and most gainful qualification in every profession." Maintain your integrity and you will have nothing to fear from being called on the carpet."

You have nearly 500 posts, and I don't think I've ever agreed with a single one of them. That may be a record.

 

[skydog]

You have nearly 500 posts, and I don't think I've ever agreed with a single one of them. That may be a record.

What's it feel like to be wrong all the time? j/k

There is nothing in my last post to agree or disagree with. I'm simply relating my experiences. I can't help it if yours have been different.

I'm not saying pilot pushing doesn't exist. I'm sure it does exist. Hence the quote from Thomas Jefferson. Practice integrity in everything you do, and those kinds of problems will be minimalized. You'll choose not to work for those operators, and/or you will develop a positive reputation of being someone who knows his craft and whose judgement can be trusted. Either way, the problem is solved.

I'm saying that, in my experience, the pilots who were subjected to "pushing" were the ones whose "marginal (for lack of a better word) skills, judgment, experience or professionaism were more of a handicap to the situation then the perceived "problem."

By the way, it is when a person attempts to exceed their perceived limitations (in skills, experience, and judgment) that personal and professional growth occur. Of course the opposite can happen as well. Food for thought.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Al Gore invented the internet for one thing...Porn.
All these news/forums/networking sites just take up unnecessary bandwidth.

Classic quote from the Broadway musical, "Avenue Q".

"The Internet Is For Porn" - Trekkie Monster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TA57L0kuc

 

[wheelsup]

The media would just love to get ahold of this stuff!!

 

[minitour]

The media would just love to get ahold of this stuff!!

I'm sure they know all about porn. Chris Hansen even has a show ...

-mini

 

[wheelsup]

lol

 

[ljg]

Ackeight that was nice of you to mow the airport lawn for them.

I can't say I've ever seen any intentional pressure from LCK on our pilot group. It could theoretically happen but I've never seen it.

 

[Polar742]

Look, I'm not saying don't write up something that's unsafe, I'm saying don't ground the plane and waste precious time and money for a yoke clip, or sticker. Its give and take in this industry, take take take take take, and you wonder why companies are going out of business all the time. Use your head, be rational, think for yourself.

Seriously, if your company goes under cause you ensure the airplanes are properly maintained....you're screwed anyway...

I've grounded airplanes for broken yoke clips (Anyone flying the E145 knows this to be a fact too) and missing placards. The last thing I need is to 1) hurt myself or someone else, or 2) get ramped and be found with equipment inoperative.

I don't know about you, but shooting an approach without a chart right where I need it is unsafe, and I'm talking about flying in a crew environment. I can't imagine flying single pilot IFR without my charts accessible and properly readable.

There are lots of people who have "prioritized" what's safe for flight. They are engineers, lawyers, rulemakers and certification specialists. There are reasons parts 23 and 25 exist, and equipment standards exist in part 135 and 121. They have created the minimum equipment lists, dmi procedures, and required items for safe flight. They were sitting at their desks when they wrote this. Not at an outstation wanting to get home, so they are taking the most prudent path. The authorization for an MEL is not hard for an operator to obtain. Heck, I've even heard there is a guy that owns a Barron and keeps himself and the airplane certified for CatII ops.

At our operation, we carry a flyaway kit that contains items that will cause the airplane to be stranded at a faroff destination. Sure some single engine cessna has basic equipment and very few complex systems to break. However, if you need it to go fly, you gotta have it.

If someone gets their crap late or arrive late, then so be it. If you "carrying" items is needed for the company to get by, it's time to look for a new place to work.

 

[Boris Badenov]

At our operation, we carry a flyaway kit that contains items that will cause the airplane to be stranded at a faroff destination. Sure some single engine cessna has basic equipment and very few complex systems to break. However, if you need it to go fly, you gotta have it.

At your operation you also carry or have access to an A&P who can put those items in for you. According to my opspecs, if I'm on a freezing ramp in Green Bay in the middle of December at 3am and there's a post light burned out on the co-pilot's side VSI, I can't fly. Nevermind that there is no co-pilot and there's a human heart in a cooler that's not going to get to the person who will die without it and I've got a post light sitting three feet from me in a box. It's illegal. I'm not an A&P, I can't put the light in. So I can't go.

So, naturally, being the law-abiding citizen I am, I don't go.

Right?

No one is saying break the law for your amusement or fun or just to get home to sleep in your warm bed. I'm just saying ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOU'RE LEGAL, especially when you land, but use your common sense.

 

[Seggy]

Your company should create a MEL list that can defer that item.

 

[minitour]

I don't know about you, but shooting an approach without a chart right where I need it is unsafe, and I'm talking about flying in a crew environment. I can't imagine flying single pilot IFR without my charts accessible and properly readable.

Ugh. Preachin to the choir. Nothing worse than getting bounced down the glide slope and having the chart "book" fall off your lap and close. Now you're getting closer to the ground, trying to slow and open the book, hell just pick it up off of the floor first, flip to the page, etc. for that one time in x that you have to miss.

According to my opspecs, if I'm on a freezing ramp in Green Bay in the middle of December at 3am and there's a post light burned out on the co-pilot's side VSI, I can't fly. Nevermind that there is no co-pilot and there's a human heart in a cooler that's not going to get to the person who will die without it and I've got a post light sitting three feet from me in a box. It's illegal. I'm not an A&P, I can't put the light in. So I can't go.

So, naturally, being the law-abiding citizen I am, I don't go.

Right?

Yep.

It sucks. Same as the "you just took-off and the guy in 2C has a heart attack. The departure airport just went below minimums and the nearest airport at or above minimums is 2 hours away. What do you do?" scenario. You'd love to go back, but you can't endanger the rest of the operation for that one guy.

This time it's the post light (I'm surprised your MEL doesn't say the interior lighting just has to be adequate as determined by the crew...interesting), next time maybe it's your NTS system on the left side. Obviously that's a little extreme and makes the decision much easier (I'd hope), but still if you can't go (legally), then you can't go.

It's different if the left nav light has gone out on your 3rd leg and you don't catch it until your post-flight at the end of the day. You can't write something up if you don't know about it. Not that it's an excuse ...

-mini

 

[Seggy]

By the way, take this for what it is worth, but at Delta, they ask a question similar to the situations we are talking about here.

'It is Christmas Eve you are in a station with no maintenance and have a full plane of passengers going back to ATL, you and your crew are going home once you land. On your preflight you discover your nav light on the left wing is burned out. The Captain says he will write it up back in ATL we are going. What do you do?'

If you don't do things properly on the line as a Captain good luck trying to rational your decision to an interview board. By the way I was asked this question and a few follow ups and they didn't seem to have a problem with my answer FWIW.

 

[Polar742]

At your operation you also carry or have access to an A&P who can put those items in for you. According to my opspecs, if I'm on a freezing ramp in Green Bay in the middle of December at 3am and there's a post light burned out on the co-pilot's side VSI, I can't fly. Nevermind that there is no co-pilot and there's a human heart in a cooler that's not going to get to the person who will die without it and I've got a post light sitting three feet from me in a box. It's illegal. I'm not an A&P, I can't put the light in. So I can't go.

So, naturally, being the law-abiding citizen I am, I don't go.

Right?

No one is saying break the law for your amusement or fun or just to get home to sleep in your warm bed. I'm just saying ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOU'RE LEGAL, especially when you land, but use your common sense.

Sure we have an FE, and if we go somewhere where there is no maintenance for a 747, we take a flight mechanic. We can carry an extensive flyaway kit too. It is a necessity sometimes in our business, but not on what I fly. PVG, HKG and ICN all have parts and mechanics for our bird.

The thing is, Seggy is right. You can make an MEL for that airplane, I'm sure your company has one. If not, another operator does, or there's a MMEL at Fedtown.

Also, there is a huge difference between breaking and getting stuck in a countries where you can be imprisoned for upsetting the wrong official and breaking in Green Bay where I'm sure there is a mechanic who could probably use some work. There are things like human hearts that are time critical, but your company following the rules and making an MEL would promote doing the right thing, not your hypothetical circumstance.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Your company should create a MEL list that can defer that item.

They have an MEL. That's not on it. Someone at the FAA in their infinite wisdom decided that I needed the co-pilot's VSI that I can't even see. So I am honor and duty bound to obey the law and let the orphan with a heart condition expire at his own speed because I am, after all, just a cog in a machine who is best left not making Decisions.

There used to be something called "discretion" which a real PIC could be trusted to use. You didn't need to badger them with regulations because when the airplane was broken they had the stones to say "hey, this airplane is broken, and I'm not flying it." Luckily, that's been replaced with a slavish insistence on eidetic memorization of the FARs and a smug attitude about what passes for "safety". Now that's Progress.

Sincerely,
Pilot Unit #198384923-AS-3432

Beep, whir.

No wonder computers will be flying these things in a few years. I mean, hell, what's the difference?