Broken Airnet Crew in DAY - Pilot Pushing

They have an MEL. That's not on it. Someone at the FAA in their infinite wisdom decided that I needed the co-pilot's VSI that I can't even see. So I am honor and duty bound to obey the law and let the orphan with a heart condition expire at his own speed because I am, after all, just a cog in a machine who is best left not making Decisions.

I am calling B.S. on you dude. There IS a MEL for it...

If you go to http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/Final/smallac/ and click on the MU2BR10.doc and then go to page 33-1 you can read MEL 33-4 you can fly with that inop provided that the other lights can sufficiently illuminate all required instruments.

This MEL reads exactly the same to ours we had on the Beech.
 
Their used to be something called "discretion" which a real PIC could be trusted to use. You didn't need to badger them with regulations because when the airplane was broken they had the stones to say "hey, this airplane is broken, and I'm not flying it." Luckily, that's been replaced with a slavish insistence on eidetic memorization of the FARs and a smug attitude about what passes for "safety". Now that's Progress.

Well there are also stacks of NTSB reports about people balling stuff up because things weren't working properly and they used their discretion and decided it was safe to continue.

So the smugness can go either way. What's funny is I fly with alot of seasoned folks now. If stuff doesn't work, it goes in the logbook. Done. These individuals have come from all different backgrounds, from PanAm to the crappiest airlines you can't even imagine. They have flow bombs to war, fighters in war, and bodies home. One of our guys WAS the guy that had #2 come off his 747, as well as about 30 feet of leading edge at a max gross weight at takeoff out of ANC. I've seen more writeups here than I did at the regional.

Instead of a guy dropping off a plane, telling me in a jetway that "This that and the other thing are not working right" then I end up writing it up anyway, cause I won't take the plane. Now I hear, "yeah, I wrote it up already and they're working on it"

The human heart is a time-critical shipment. I'm sure if you called into the FBO and told them the light burned out on the way in they'd have someone out there to fix it in a hurry. I mean if you're doing a quick turn, leave #2 turning while you pop open the door, and the light burns out, and it burns out just before you pop the brake, that's just bad luck.
 
Man I think I'm fully busted. It probably is on it. I confess that it's not a situation that's occurred (to me anyway). You'll forgive me if, even after having been busted for writing hypothetically in a way that I thought was obviously hypothetical, I still maintain that there's a problem with making pilots in to regulation-spewing machines. If we expect to be respected as something more than meat-computers, we'd better start acting like it. Every small erosion of the responsability and thereby the power of the PIC just gets us closer to being another cost item on a balance sheet that can be eliminated.

You want to be paid "fairly" (like you're worth something)? Then be worth something. Use the parallel processing part of your brain that is capable of determining complex questions like right, wrong, and whether some technical illegality is reason enough to keep you on the ground.

Pillory me all you like as a "cowboy", but I promise you, if you give me enough time, a full set of CFRs, and an airplane you'll happily accept, I will take your ticket away from you, too.

You're paid to use your judgment. So use it.
 
Man I think I'm fully busted. It probably is on it. I confess that it's not a situation that's occurred (to me anyway). You'll forgive me if, even after having been busted for writing hypothetically in a way that I thought was obviously hypothetical, I still maintain that there's a problem with making pilots in to regulation-spewing machines. If we expect to be respected as something more than meat-computers, we'd better start acting like it. Every small erosion of the responsability and thereby the power of the PIC just gets us closer to being another cost item on a balance sheet that can be eliminated.

You want to be paid "fairly" (like you're worth something)? Then be worth something. Use the parallel processing part of your brain that is capable of determining complex questions like right, wrong, and whether some technical illegality is reason enough to keep you on the ground.

Pillory me all you like as a "cowboy", but I promise you, if you give me enough time, a full set of CFRs, and an airplane you'll happily accept, I will take your ticket away from you, too.

You're paid to use your judgment. So use it.

C'mon...you usually make great points. I just disagree vehemently with your opinion on this.

It's not an "FAR Challenge" or anything. I think there are parts of the FARs that are stupid as can be, but to dismiss following FARs, MELs and the crazy amount of rules issued by the FEDS and Company to the best of your ability as an erosion of responsibilty is silly.

From the tack you take, it's almost like taking off with an inop VSI light is an act of rebellion to show the man you have discretion. Guess what? The man doesn't care unless he's ramping you.

The ultimate discerner of PIC discretion is looking at something, like say, your VSI light, reading the MEL, and deciding if it's safe. If the MEL says "adequate lighting", then it's your discretion. Just like if you're out of the blocks and considered "inflight" and it's the PIC's discretion to continue. Now you might be happy with the background panel lighting or whatever you have available, or maybe another postlight does enough work for you. Maybe the next pilot won't take the machine because that PIC uses THEIR discretion to determine they are not comfortable with the lighting.

Who's right? You both are. It's not a contest of who can do the job with the least equipment. It's a job. Your job is to move the plane within the regulations. Your discretion keeps you from dying at work. That's PIC discretion.

There's multiple MELs that are legal individually, but you, as PIC, look at them and recognize it's not a safe situation. That's where your judgement and experience come into play.

Not taking the flight is a much harder call than actually taking the flight. Writing up the broken machine in an outstation right before you get to go home after a long day and getting stranded is much harder to do than say "it'll be OK...."

Using that processing part of the brain keeps you alive, safe and the thing moving. You have to use your brain to do so inside the rules set.
 
I suspect that both you and I know that there will be situations in which something is legitimately, technically illegal, but stupid. The broader question (it seems to me) is what sort of society we want to live in. One in which half the population are criminals and the other half excrement-eating informers? Or one in which a single man (or woman), themselves, can make a decision by their best lights, effect a favorable outcome, and hope not to be strung up for it by some apparatchik with their nose in a rulebook and a finger up their rear.

I'm pretty sure I know which side I'm on.

I've downed airplanes in places where the A&P had to drive 40 minutes (on the clock, I'm sure) to even get there and the work had to picked up by trucks. I've had "dispatchers" (flight followers is the correct term, I think) ask me whether I'm "sure" something is broken, and I've said yes it's frickin broken and it needs fixing. It's not like I advocate kicking up your heels and breaking the law because "Hell, what could possibly go wrong?"

But if you sincerely believe that every time you commit aviation your aircraft is impervious to fault-finding by someone properly motivated, you and I live in very, very different worlds.
 
I am calling B.S. on you dude. There IS a MEL for it...

If you go to http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/Final/smallac/ and click on the MU2BR10.doc and then go to page 33-1 you can read MEL 33-4 you can fly with that inop provided that the other lights can sufficiently illuminate all required instruments.

This MEL reads exactly the same to ours we had on the Beech.

Just curious, but isn't it required to have specific authorization from the administrator to operate under an approved MEL? Therefore, despite the existence of the list, if you don't have the letter saying you can use it what's the point?
 
You're paid to use your judgment. So use it.
With all due respect, and I really see what you're saying, but I believe saying "I can't go because ____ and I can't MEL it" is an excellent demonstration of Pilot-In-Command Decision making and judgment.

Really, anyone can say "ah hell, I'll just go". Saying "no" when you know you could end up losing your job (and some people really are in that situation) or when someone could die, that's a tough call. Especially when it's over something small ... like an inop left nav light.

I won't condemn someone for going with an inop ___, but I don't have to agree with it either.

-mini
 
Not taking the flight is a much harder call than actually taking the flight. Writing up the broken machine in an outstation right before you get to go home after a long day and getting stranded is much harder to do than say "it'll be OK...."

I couldn't agree more with this. Real courage is saying "no", not saying "yes". I flatter myself that I engage in the former much more than the later. But there will always be gray areas, and to pretend that we're capable of following every FAR to the letter every day every time is, forgive me, ludicrous.

Perhaps I just don't place as much value in the byzantine machinations of the FAA as you do, I don't know. I've been ramped plenty and I've never been found wanting. And I don't plan to be. I've never "kicked the tires and lit the fires". Hell, I even know the lengths of the runways at each airport of intended landing, even if it IS frickin BWI. But I am all too wickedly aware that rules are what substitute for conscience and good sense, not the other way around. The rules are your friend until the first time you find yourself on the wrong end of them, no matter how innocent you might be. Your conscience and good sense are your's, and eternal insofar as anything is. I guess I just work harder to preserve and honor the later.
 
Just curious, but isn't it required to have specific authorization from the administrator to operate under an approved MEL? Therefore, despite the existence of the list, if you don't have the letter saying you can use it what's the point?

An interesting point, and one that if I were a little bit smarter (or more interested in being a jerk) I might have used to obscure the issue. But the simple fact is I made up the scenario completely out of my head and I don't have an MEL from my company in front of me (thank God). I'm sure he's right on the specifics. By all means, continue the discussion if you're interested, but for my part I bow out of this particular part of the "fight" (hope it's not really a fight).
 
In all fairness, I should add that while I'm by no means convinced, I don't want to be a jerk and pretend that I'm impervious to criticism. Y'all raise points worth consideration, and it's possible (just possible, mind you!) that my attitude on this question is in need of some fine-tuning.

It's certainly true that a system only works at all if everyone takes it seriously and works within it, however stupid it might be at times. I'm not shutting that fact out, and I really don't (however much I might appear to) have the attitude of ignoring whatever rules I happen not to agree with at the moment.

I'm not saying the next time I find myself "possibly" at odds with some sub-paragraph of one of the ten billion pages of the Code Of Federal Regulations, I'll immediately shut down and call the FSDO, but there's food for thought here, and I'm having some lunch.

Maybe I'll get mad and call you names on the NEXT thread.
 
I couldn't agree more with this. Real courage is saying "no", not saying "yes". I flatter myself that I engage in the former much more than the later. But there will always be gray areas, and to pretend that we're capable of following every FAR to the letter every day every time is, forgive me, ludicrous.

Perhaps I just don't place as much value in the byzantine machinations of the FAA as you do, I don't know. I've been ramped plenty and I've never been found wanting. And I don't plan to be. I've never "kicked the tires and lit the fires". Hell, I even know the lengths of the runways at each airport of intended landing, even if it IS frickin BWI. But I am all too wickedly aware that rules are what substitute for conscience and good sense, not the other way around. The rules are your friend until the first time you find yourself on the wrong end of them, no matter how innocent you might be. Your conscience and good sense are your's, and eternal insofar as anything is. I guess I just work harder to preserve and honor the later.

Somehow I have a hard time of making a connection between how I conduct myself at work and my philosiphy on life.

You might be surprised I share your philosphical outlook on alot of subjects in life.

Because I endeavor to compy with the rules set forth when I voluntarily undertook this career, no matter how inane or rediculous I think they may seem, does not mean I don't exercise judgement and common sense. I'm pretty sure the guys that sign the logbook on our flying machines that have seen the FARs go from a pamphlet to a regulatory quagmire still operate within the bounds given them. I don't always make the perfect choice, but I try to. The example you set isn't even an effort of complying with the rules at any level.

Shooting a dart and saying
But there will always be gray areas, and to pretend that we're capable of following every FAR to the letter every day every time is, forgive me, ludicrous
is not what you are arguing.

Your hypothetical example violated a very black and white part of the rule. Arguing for the FAA applying careless and reckless operation wantonly is a completely different animal. If you argued that during your flight, you lost an engine, and flew over 3 fields 5000' of concrete and landed at an airport that had 10000' of concrete with CFR and the FEDs got up your kiester, then I would whole-heartedly support you. That is PIC discretion, and the pinnacle of judgement.

In my mind, the byzantine empire of the FAA is just that. However, you volunteered for the job. You weren't conscripted help. The playing field was set long before you or I ever turned a wheel. The unwieldy system is VERY safe. It has been proven in time. There are LOTS of issues that we could get into ad nausem about what is wrong, but the end of the day, the US has the safest air transporation system in the world. You are part of that. However, if you don't like it, you don't have to fly airplanes.
 
/snip/

I would never fly with an inop item that adversely affects the safety of my airplane and crew.
LOL.

I am one of those most safety conscious pilots I know. And early on I examined those things that pilots sometimes do (NTSB reports, ASRS Call Back, AOPA ASF reports, etc) but I would never do. And I continually rexamine what behaviors I am susceptable to. But Jack Lord's hair, I sure have done some things I told myself I would never do.
 
LOL.

I am one of those most safety conscious pilots I know. And early on I examined those things that pilots sometimes do (NTSB reports, ASRS Call Back, AOPA ASF reports, etc) but I would never do. And I continually rexamine what behaviors I am susceptable to. But Jack Lord's hair, I sure have done some things I told myself I would never do.
I was dead serious.
 
Just to get this thread back on track...

By the way, whyshouldn't pilots be pushed? It happens in every other profession, why not this one?

There, that ought to do it!
 
Just to get this thread back on track...

By the way, whyshouldn't pilots be pushed? It happens in every other profession, why not this one?

There, that ought to do it!

Safety first, deadlines second. Period. End of discussion.

-mini
 
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