Company wants you to pay for training?

[Propilot]

Why do people people get on their knees for Southwest?

They make you pay for a type.

double standard?

and dont say "well, thats different" cuz its not.

You pay for it one way or another...


1. indentured servitude (contract)

2. first year pay (20k-30K at airlines other than southwest )/no medical for 6 months

3. directly (southwest), but with higher first year pay than other airlines


your always paying for it....its just a question of how.

 

[germb747]

There is a difference. It's one thing to lay out the requirements for a job in advance (college degree, ATP w/ ratings, medical, so many hours, what have you), as a means to narrow the hiring pool to only the most competitive candidates. Establishing these qualifications (i.e. to get the type rating at Southwest) doesn't reduce the amount of training Southwest has to give you in class, does it? You still have to go through the whole program as if you had showed up without the type. Southwest isn't asking it's applicants to foot the bill for something it's their responsibility to pay for (no FAA requirement exists for the type until Captain upgrade, where you still go through the wringer at WN's expense). As for other "jobs" that may you pay to sit in the right seat is completely different; they're making you pay to come to work while they're bringing in revenue off your work. If I'm going to have to pay to sit in a B1900 for "training", there had better not be one single revenue customer on board because I'm not going to stand for a company making money off my work while I'm essentially treated like a paying customer with a set of controls in front of my seat.

The issue we have here is that the requirement to get the type at the corporate gig was laid out after the fact. What they need to do is limit their search for pilots who already meet the qualification prior to the hiring decision, or suck it up and pay the bill if you choose to hire a pilot who isn't qualified on your equipment. Laying out more terms after this person accepted the job and presumably made life changing decisions in anticipation of the new job is flat out fraud.


:tmyk:

 

[Ramsey]

They should have made the type rating a prerequisite.

Why don't they take the loan and pay it monthly? Or even split the costs so that both parties have a vested interest in each other - you get to take the rating with you when you leave. What do they get? Two weeks notice?

Requiring type rating is not PFT in my opinion. Now hiring you over a type rated pilot could be seen as such if you end up paying to fly…
Loads of airlines require type ratings prior to applying.

 

[WacoFan]

They should have made the type rating a prerequisite.

Why don't they take the loan and pay it monthly? Or even split the costs so that both parties have a vested interest in each other - you get to take the rating with you when you leave. What do they get? Two weeks notice?

Requiring type rating is not PFT in my opinion. Now hiring you over a type rated pilot could be seen as such if you end up paying to fly…
Loads of airlines require type ratings prior to applying.

I agree that they should have made it a prerequisite. I not believe that they should even split the loan - they obviously have as much control over this guys job (can fire him) as he does (he can leave). They should take the loan obligation, and at most give him a pro-rated training contract. The fact that they sprung this on him AFTER he was hired and had quit his other job is what sucks. These people are scum and I stand by my original comment about him suing them. I hate lawyers, and I hate frivolous lawsuits...but this is not frivolous.

 

[fly6785]

These people are scum and I stand by my original comment about him suing them. I hate lawyers, and I hate frivolous lawsuits...but this is not frivolous.

:yeahthat:

I'm not all that familiar with legal actions... I had a offer letter sent to me... I signed it and faxed it back before I gave my 2 weeks... I didn't think it was possible to take any legal action on this place for messing up my life until I find another employer... But is it possible to take some sort of legal action? Although Lawyers these days cost about as much as a type rating

 

[germb747]

:yeahthat:

I'm not all that familiar with legal actions... I had a offer letter sent to me... I signed it and faxed it back before I gave my 2 weeks... I didn't think it was possible to take any legal action on this place for messing up my life until I find another employer... But is it possible to take some sort of legal action? Although Lawyers these days cost about as much as a type rating

I'm all for suing these spineless scumbags, but you'll have to be able to somehow prove damages and attach a dollar value to it. Even though what they did was completely wrong, in many of these types of cases it's extremely difficult to establish a financial liability on their part, especially if there weren't any written agreements in place. Depending on the laws in your state, you may be just like any other "at will" employee with very limited rights in this regard.

 

[docflyer]

How big is this company as a whole? How many aircraft/types do they have? How many pilots?

I know next to nothing about the hiring process at SWA, but are that many guys paying for types in the 737 just to get hired there? Or are most guys coming from other airlines where they had the 737 type paid for already?

 

[derg]

On the topic at hand, if the company decides last minute it can't afford to train you, but it wants to, in effect, have you give IT a loan... Chances are they can't afford things like maintenance, health care or perhaps even the operational costs of the airplane. You're an operational cost as well, just like fuel, oil, hangar space and maintenance.

My suggestion is to find another employment opportunity.

 

[KLB]

If they already can't afford to pay for the type rating and if this is a flight department of a company and things financially get bad.....what's going to be the first place they will look to make cuts?

 

[Number1atNumber2]

:yeahthat:

I'm not all that familiar with legal actions... I had a offer letter sent to me... I signed it and faxed it back before I gave my 2 weeks... I didn't think it was possible to take any legal action on this place for messing up my life until I find another employer... But is it possible to take some sort of legal action? Although Lawyers these days cost about as much as a type rating

What you might want to do is at least talk to a lawyer and see what their opinion on the matter, you may want to talk to a couple of them and see what they say. People sue over far more trivial matters these days. I know very little about taking legal action as well, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But maybe you can find a lawyer that could explain to you why you do, or do not, have a case.

You never know, there may be a lawyer that lurks on this site that has a passion for flying that could be willing to help. AOPA has legal services they offer, although I'd imgaine they focus more on dealing with the FAA, but they may be able to refer you to the right kind of legal council.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

The average light jet holds around 600 gallons of Jet-A at say a national average of around 6.50/gal. So $3900 to top it off.

Your type is probably in the neighborhood of $15,000 or the equivalent of about 4 top-offs.

If a company can't afford to pay for 4 top-offs, maybe this isn't the right airplane for them. And if they can... then they can also pay to have a well qualified crew at the helm.

Don't fall for the BS. Airplanes are a big number proposition. Type ratings are small numbers in comparison.

 

[WacoFan]

:yeahthat:

I'm not all that familiar with legal actions... I had a offer letter sent to me... I signed it and faxed it back before I gave my 2 weeks... I didn't think it was possible to take any legal action on this place for messing up my life until I find another employer... But is it possible to take some sort of legal action? Although Lawyers these days cost about as much as a type rating

Shouldn't cost you much of anything, other than time. A lawyer will take the case on a "contigency", meaning that when they win something for you, they take 30-40% of the winnings. If they get nothing for you, you pay nothing. The beauty of this system (from a plaintifs point of view) is that a) the attorney will scrutinize the case carefully and only take it if there is a good chance of winning something and b) you have little to no risk in this transaction - the attorney does. As for damages - the attorney that takes it on contigency will most probably draw up what this has cost you, and he will dramatically inflate this number yet try to remain somewhat reasonable. Your damages do not reflect what you do in the future so much as what you left to take this job. If you were a pilot at a regional, the lawyer will assume that you would have reached the top of the payscale very quickly, therefore your damages are "top of the payscale times x number of years till retirement" or something like that. You have already incurred damages. Lawyers can be creative - call one. Don't pay for the type, and don't stay with these A-holes.

 

[ready2fly]

On the topic at hand, if the company decides last minute it can't afford to train you, but it wants to, in effect, have you give IT a loan... Chances are they can't afford things like maintenance, health care or perhaps even the operational costs of the airplane. You're an operational cost as well, just like fuel, oil, hangar space and maintenance.

My suggestion is to find another employment opportunity.

Seconded.

 

[taseal]

You can lead a horse to water. . .

Or something like that. . .

People that try to rationalize the pay for training/job environment are not helping to promote the profession. In fact, those who do rationalize it pretty much screw the rest of us by lowering our overall professional worth.

Such is life I suppose. . .

Can only lead a horse to water. . .

so you calling the OP a horse? :crazy:

 

[rjmore]

For more examples of this business practice see this thread:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/jobs-available/68720-lear-fo-needed.html

 

[Maurus]

If they already can't afford to pay for the type rating and if this is a flight department of a company and things financially get bad.....what's going to be the first place they will look to make cuts?

That is probably what happened. They made a cut last second for training costs.


The reason first year airline pay is so low is because the airlines have to train you. In essence you are still paying for your rating by accepting a low wage. And no, type ratings aren't always five figures. I see B737 types for $7,000 with a little searching on Google.

I don't see paying for a type bad, if it in fact does "ruin the profession" then SWA should be the next airline for you guys to hate. I know others have said that, but it really is no different at all, just a larger first year pay. heck it might be equal to the corporate gig as far as we know.

Now the problem with the OP's situation is that he signed on with them and they said they would get him the type only to screw him over and offer the alternative. He already did a lot for them only for them to change the deal after training had started. This is just a bad business practice in general and if what they said is true about why they can't pay, then it could mean bad financial problems within the company and the flight department would be gone soon anyway.

 

[surreal1221]

so you calling the OP a horse? :crazy:

Nope.

The OP is not the one trying to rationalize the decision. He(she?) is seeking guidance on employment with a PFJ/PFT establishment and appears he(she?) has taken the guidance well.

 

[tonyw]

The thing that stinks the most?

They expect YOU to take out a loan on something they should be paying for.

I would have asked anyone who suggested that if that's such a good idea, then why don't you guys get the loan?

And if they said well, our credit line is maxed out, then I would retort well, if the bank can't trust you to pay up, why should I put my credit rating on the line for you?

Yeah, my letter of resignation would probably not be necessary at that point.

So be it.

 

[WacoFan]

The thing that stinks the most?

They expect YOU to take out a loan on something they should be paying for.

I would have asked anyone who suggested that if that's such a good idea, then why don't you guys get the loan?

And if they said well, our credit line is maxed out, then I would retort well, if the bank can't trust you to pay up, why should I put my credit rating on the line for you?

Yeah, my letter of resignation would probably not be necessary at that point.

So be it.

Excellent post

 

[fly6785]

Just to give everyone an update... Seems there was a HUGE misunderstanding that got way out of content getting to the person it needed to get too... I was suppose to be told I had the option of paying for it and getting reimbursed the loan + 15% over the course of a year if I chose to pay for it myself or they would pay for my type rating by themselves... I got the phone call today along with a HUGE apology... So somebody in the office SCREWED UP REALLY BAD and I was told it was all on my own dime and no option... So I do still have a job... Some words got messed up by the time it got back to me... They are paying for everything and im not... Thanks for all your advice... I will be sure to keep everything in mind... Your a great group of people and I really appreciate the huge responses and the advice!!!!!! :crazy: