Company wants you to pay for training?

Our buddy Mark (a classmate of Bill's from TWA) got furloughed from AA and he got a job offer from a corporate outfit in Houston. The only caveat? He had to be qualified in the Citation to be qualified for the job. He was a Missouri resident, and this was not too long after 9/11 so he was able to use state "retraining" money to pay for the type rating, but from the very little (and I will admit that it is very little) that I know about the corporate world what I've seen is that it's very common to need experience in type to be qualified for the job.

He did take that corporate job, but left it to go to JALWays to fly 747s for JAL. He still says he'll take the recall to AA when offered, but it's gonna be a while.....


Darn, Steve typed faster than me! I posted this before I read SteveC's above post........
 
No one but me paid for my private through ATP so why should my CE560 type be any different? If the type didn't go on MY certificate I might feel differently. I don't buy the whole "the company can afford it" argument either.
If a company can't afford to properly train its pilots, then it doesn't need to have a jet...PERIOD. Contract pilots buy their own types, that is true. HOWEVER, contract pilots command well over 6 figures for their services and is not a fair comparison. For a newbie to the business to go out and buy a type is a waste of time and money. The PIC is the only one "required" to have a type. A newbie is not going to be PIC. In the corporate world, a type with no "time in type" is a flag to employers.

If you do go buy a type and don't fly the "real plane" for 6-12 months after, you have to get requalled. Are you going to pay for your currency every 6-12 months too?

Once upon a time......I flew King Airs for a few years and was offered training in one of the jets. I jumped at the chance and off to training I went. Prior to getting checked out they decided I needed to sign a contract to complete training in "the jet." I said no thanks and happily went back to the KA.

Pilots buying their own types does this:
Lowers the operator's bottom line.
Raises the pilot's bottom line
Encourages employers to keep carrying costs on the backs of their employees.
Type without significant time-n-type is worthless
Type without being current is worthless
Asking an entry level employee to pay for a 5 figure type is unacceptable.

If pilots start buying their own types they are "asking for it." Be careful about the message "YOU" send.
 
So I quit my job earlier in the month to go to a corporate gig (were you under the belief that they were paying for your training? Did you have an offer letter stating salary, job and hours, and training?)... I did one week of ground school and was waiting my simulator training which was suppose to start second week in July... The company was suppose to pay for the type rating. They call me last week to inform me that my training had been canceled due to cost so I will in a nut shell be laid off...(They changed the rules after the game was already started) They called me back end of last week and told me if I would take the loan to pay for the type:rotfl: then they would reimburse me a little each month and within a year have it paid for...(Aha, a bright idea on their part - YOU pay) Now i'm not one who believes in the employee having anything to do financial wise with training... But have any of you corporate guys done this with success in getting reimbursed??? If so I would like to hear exactly what kind of agreement/contract you had... Are they obligated to pay you back if they go under?(Which I highly doubt this company will but you never know) ... Aviation market is getting difficult to find a job so thats the only reason im even thinking about starting to consider this... Any advice would be greatly appreciated... THANKS GUYS/GALS!!!:confused:

My sincere advice is this - find a lawyer and sue them until you own the airplane you were supposed to fly around. They offered you a job, you resigned your previous job (and seniority I assume) and then, after a week, they tell you they can't afford training and you are fired unless you pay (I know you said "laid off", but that term only implies they would have you back which they probably wouldn't). Has their business gone through a dramatic change in the last week? If they can no longer afford training how are they going to afford Jet-A? Why do YOU have to take out the loan - why can't they (it will be a net wash for them since they were going to pay you a "little extra every month to pay for it) and give you a pro-rated training contract? These people are creeps, but your advantage is that attorneys are creeps too, and there are thousands of them. Find the meanest SOB you can find that will take the case on contingency and leave him with the instruction to make their lives simply misreable. While he is doing that, try to get a new job. That is just my opinion - they treated you horribly. This is NOT like MQAARD's story where it was known up front that a type was needed prior to employment - these people screwed you.
 
How do you guys feel about low 1st year pay. I look at it as paying for your training.
 
I thought it was pretty common to have to have experience in type (previous experience/training) for Corporate gigs?

It is sometimes...

I know flight departments that have changed fleets from Citations to Gulfstreams, and not one pilot had experience in the Gulfstream. They were typed and insured right away. Of course they had thousands of hours of Jet PIC, so sometimes experience in type doesn't matter.

Not sure if the original poster has a few thousand hours, but if he were trying to go for a smaller jet gig, which this most definitely is (his avatar is a Beechjet 400 POS), if he had 1000 hours of multi with jet time, he'd probably find a insurer.

To the OP, run away from this company. Dirt bag companies only do this. A jet is millions, and if they can't afford 20k they're not worth toilet paper I wipe my backside with.
 
Why do people people get on their knees for Southwest?

They make you pay for a type.

double standard?

and dont say "well, thats different" cuz its not.
 
you guys have it GOOD in US...

over in europe, u better have the $$$ saved up to get that type rating if u want a job!
 
Why do people people get on their knees for Southwest?

They make you pay for a type.

double standard?

and dont say "well, thats different" cuz its not.

i agree fully, i dont see any difference in someone paying for their type to get a class date at southwest, but everybody excuses that for some reason. how is that any different?
 
Why do people people get on their knees for Southwest?

They make you pay for a type.

double standard?

and dont say "well, thats different" cuz its not.


I see SWA like the organic food industry..

It’s the same product... the buyer thinks that they are getting something special when in actual fact there is no difference.

I want to know what happens when the SWA fuel contracts expire (or is this dirty a rumor)


On the whole pay for type rating. We need to strike a balance. One the one extreme all jobs a PFT/PFJ, at the other it’s like the UK cadet system (almost zero GA). In some (limited) cases PFJ/PFT is fine.

But for the original post... If they can’t invest the few thousand dollars in your rating then what kind stink are they going to kick up over a busted radio or primary flight instrument (I can hear them now.... "You have another on the other side of the panel ..use that one)
 
My sincere advice is this - find a lawyer and sue them until you own the airplane you were supposed to fly around. They offered you a job, you resigned your previous job (and seniority I assume) and then, after a week, they tell you they can't afford training and you are fired unless you pay (I know you said "laid off", but that term only implies they would have you back which they probably wouldn't). Has their business gone through a dramatic change in the last week? If they can no longer afford training how are they going to afford Jet-A? Why do YOU have to take out the loan - why can't they (it will be a net wash for them since they were going to pay you a "little extra every month to pay for it) and give you a pro-rated training contract? These people are creeps, but your advantage is that attorneys are creeps too, and there are thousands of them. Find the meanest SOB you can find that will take the case on contingency and leave him with the instruction to make their lives simply misreable. While he is doing that, try to get a new job. That is just my opinion - they treated you horribly. This is NOT like MQAARD's story where it was known up front that a type was needed prior to employment - these people screwed you.


I'd have to say I completely agree with Waco. If there isn't some legitimate reason for the company's actions (and it better be a DAMN good one), they are so in the wrong it's not even funny. From what you've said, it really smells funny what's going on here. This kind of junk needs to stop in the aviation industry. It really burns me to see this. Never underestimate corporate greed, espically corporate aviation greed.

And while you're at it, find a different place to work. These guys would probably tell you to fly a plane with blown tire and a dead engine.
 
But for the original post... If they can’t invest the few thousand dollars in your rating then what kind stink are they going to kick up over a busted radio or primary flight instrument (I can hear them now.... "You have another on the other side of the panel ..use that one)

well they're right! :D

then when the right side brakes... well, stay away from clouds! :D
 
What a scam! It'd be one thing if they told you up front at the interview or at least before offering you the job. Since they didn't do that, either:

1) They don't have their #### together in which case this job is a gamble at best.

2) They were lying the whole time and rear ended you like a used car salesman.

...or both.
 
The difference with southwest is they're essentially cutting you a break. You know when you go to the interview that a 737 type is a requirement. Don't want to pay for one? Don't go to the interview. They could easily require the type before the interview and still have a line around the block of guys who are qualified, but they want to be able to hire guys they like. Also, southwest doesn't need the type to be a "retention strategy", as the pilots make good money and have good work rules. You don't catch a whole lot of SWA pilots leaving for "greener pastures", and of those that do, I'd wager very few indeed do so to go fly 737s.

OTOH, this deal smells to high heaven like a bait and switch. The retention argument doesn't wash, as they can make you sign a contract for the training they provide if they're concerned about you taking the type and running. And as mentioned above, there's no way they can afford the airplane but not the type. So you need to ask yourself "self, what other reason could there be?" None of the answers are good.

My employer sent me to simcom and picked up the bill. It's pro-rated over 12 months. I've got no problem with that. But they didn't invite me down for the interview and then "remember" that I had a contract to sign, let alone ask me to take out a loan at some userous interest rate for the training. Run don't walk.
 
Maybe because they are the airline that is most likely to still be standing in 20 years?

OK

I think its funny when people are all so high and mighty when it comes to these kinda business practices (PFT), but if SWA offered them a job they would get a second mortgage on their house for that 737 type.
 
I see SWA like the organic food industry..

It’s the same product... the buyer thinks that they are getting something special when in actual fact there is no difference.

I want to know what happens when the SWA fuel contracts expire (or is this dirty a rumor)


On the whole pay for type rating. We need to strike a balance. One the one extreme all jobs a PFT/PFJ, at the other it’s like the UK cadet system (almost zero GA). In some (limited) cases PFJ/PFT is fine.

But for the original post... If they can’t invest the few thousand dollars in your rating then what kind stink are they going to kick up over a busted radio or primary flight instrument (I can hear them now.... "You have another on the other side of the panel ..use that one)

This is not a rumor so much as a misunderstanding. People for years have been saying "when SWA's fuel hedges run out they will be in deep poop". People have been saying this since SWA FA's wore hot-pants. SWA did not get lucky one time with fuel hedges. They have some smart commodity brokers working for them and hedging is a continual strategy that is ongoing. Their hedges will not "run out" because it is viewed as a line of business for them and happens on a continual basis. A more relevant question would be, "What happens when oil goes from $140 bbl to $60 bbl over the course of a week?". This would effect them to the amount that SWA was hedged at a price above that number. People forget, but oil prices can drop remarkably fast - it has happened before and will happen again. In fact, oil prices drop faster than they rise in many instances. If OPEC ever got serious about the price of oil (they want and need it to be in the $60-$70 bbl range) and opened the pipes then you would see oil go down very fast. I believe SWA has 30% of their fuel hedged next year at the $60bbl level or so (not sure - read that somewhere).
 
i agree fully, i dont see any difference in someone paying for their type to get a class date at southwest, but everybody excuses that for some reason. how is that any different?

It is different because SWA tells you that this is a requirement prior to going to the interview. They do not hire you, let you go through one week of class and then say "you need to pay for your type rating or you are laid off" which is what happened here. Comparing SWA and the requirement for a type and comparing this situation is silly - SWA doesn't lie about requirements or make phantom job offers like these asshats.

A more valid comparison would be SWA requiring a type is like a company requiring a MBA from a top ten B-School. You either have it or you don't but the requirement is stated for everyone to see. It does weed out anybody that would not be able to be typed. I would be very interested to know training costs at SWA compared to other carriers. Do they have fewer busts on line checks or upgrades? Does weeding out candidates by requiring a type save them money on the training end and can any quantify as compared to other carriers?
 
You can lead a horse to water. . .

Or something like that. . .

People that try to rationalize the pay for training/job environment are not helping to promote the profession. In fact, those who do rationalize it pretty much screw the rest of us by lowering our overall professional worth.

Such is life I suppose. . .

Can only lead a horse to water. . .
 
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