Deep Thoughts: Pre-employment simulator checks

So following your argument through, the next logical thing I guess you’ll say is that he was a competent pilot. Am I right?

There are cracks in the system, and he slipped through a bunch of them and made a hole in the ground.

No, he was definitely not a competent pilot. I just think an interview ride would be even less likely to weed him out than everything else that was already in place. I think the steps the FAA has taken to create a central database as opposed to relying upon voluntary PRIA reports is likely to prevent a lot of this in the future, though. He hid his prior training issues.
 
The guy had significant struggles at every point along the way. At every airline. He managed to fail almost everything as he marched along, and you think he'd somehow pass a pre-interview sim eval?

Sim evals can be high stress, and if Chuck Yeager went on a bad day, he'd screw up and be shown the door. In that sense, I get that it may not be ideal.

You have to look at the whole picture. If Chuck fails his sim eval, and has an otherwise good record, we can call that a bad day, and invite him to be interviewed again.

If Mr. Pink-Slip comes through the door and botches the sim, and his file shows a horrible training record, we can weed him out.
 
At this point in the game, we should all be able to operate the jet. Sim rides are good for the first 135 gig or maybe your first jet job. After that, as long as their training record isn’t a clown show, they’re good to go. If it was up to me, and it clearly isn’t, I’d give my interviewers a credit card. Block out two-three hours and take the interviewee out to dinner and drinks. Ask some basic questions about their resume but mostly learn about the candidate. Can you stand to be around this person for two to three hours? Is this person respectful and responsible? Is he going to be a good culture fit? Can I share the cockpit on a four day with this person?

The hogan…is a joke. MMPI…a joke. Talking to a shrink…don’t even get me started. I learned the test, and know how to beat it. A little bit of prep and everyone else can too. TMAAT is ok, but it’s still difficult to get your story out. Technical…who cares, I’d rather see CRM exercises.

We all have the resume to hold the job, otherwise we wouldn’t have gotten the call to interview. Get rid of the “testing” and actually care to learn about the candidate and their fit.

/endofmyboomerrant
 
If Mr. Pink-Slip comes through the door and botches the sim, and his file shows a horrible training record, we can weed him out.

Are there pink slips in the civilian world? If there aren't, there should be. Cause this guy would have been carrying around the "watermelon" training jacket
 
Ideally that’s kind of the point right? You want people who want the job enough to study for it. Like, that’s part of the exercise. Are people willing to put in the effort to study any? Because I bet the people who do consequently do better in training and on the line.

No. Gouge, in the airline world, is akin to sheppard air. That is to say, "Memorize these right answers and don't even look at the questions."
That's not learning.

What you need is a ride without a script, where the interviewer can ask questions and evaluate performance real-time based on the candidate's actions and feedback. Likewise, a technical interview shouldn't be AQP style with a study guide and a list of questions—it should be free-range, based on the candidate's knowledge, experience, and the interviewer's discretion.

Hell, my SkyWest interview was like that, and it was an all-day affair with a technical interview, panel interview, etc. I narrowly missed the sim ride, though.

This is the way the real world interviews and it's baffling to me that the airlines think boilerplate "Tell me about a time you pushed wheelchairs" interview this way.
 
This is the way the real world interviews and it's baffling to me that the airlines think boilerplate "Tell me about a time you pushed wheelchairs" interview this way.

My brother in law, now retired from Intel as a former software engineer, was describing the process of their interviews that he took part in. I was left with the impression of "brutal" and "I'm not smart enough for that". Granted software wasn't my "field" of engineering study. He also did under and graduate school at MIT, and is definitely smarter than me, so some of it might have just been him. But for certain, there was not a prep course in the universe that would have prepared a person for the interview panels that he described to me. Not saying this job should involve that sort of interview, but there is probably an in between that would do better.
 
My brother in law, now retired from Intel as a former software engineer, was describing the process of their interviews that he took part in. I was left with the impression of "brutal" and "I'm not smart enough for that". Granted software wasn't my "field" of engineering study. He also did under and graduate school at MIT, and is definitely smarter than me, so some of it might have just been him. But for certain, there was not a prep course in the universe that would have prepared a person for the interview panels that he described to me. Not saying this job should involve that sort of interview, but there is probably an in between that would do better.

Certainly.

I did a lot of interviews like that in tech. It was my bread and butter for decades.

We don't particularly want to deal with jerks, but determining their ability to schmooze or go out drinking with the team isn't the priority. (It's a very white dude way to interview, tbh—a lot of it really comes down to "How similar are you to the existing white dudes"?)

Also, you're totally smart enough for that—it's just not your background or experience.
 
At this point in the game, we should all be able to operate the jet. Sim rides are good for the first 135 gig or maybe your first jet job. After that, as long as their training record isn’t a clown show, they’re good to go. If it was up to me, and it clearly isn’t, I’d give my interviewers a credit card. Block out two-three hours and take the interviewee out to dinner and drinks. Ask some basic questions about their resume but mostly learn about the candidate. Can you stand to be around this person for two to three hours? Is this person respectful and responsible? Is he going to be a good culture fit? Can I share the cockpit on a four day with this person?

The hogan…is a joke. MMPI…a joke. Talking to a shrink…don’t even get me started. I learned the test, and know how to beat it. A little bit of prep and everyone else can too. TMAAT is ok, but it’s still difficult to get your story out. Technical…who cares, I’d rather see CRM exercises.

We all have the resume to hold the job, otherwise we wouldn’t have gotten the call to interview. Get rid of the “testing” and actually care to learn about the candidate and their fit.

/endofmyboomerrant
If you can’t get past the Hogan or the equivalent at a different Air Line you’re stuck and never even get to interview. Doesn’t matter how many wheelchairs you pushed personally, or how many times you made PAs from the galley.

You clearly don’t hate the playa, you hate the game. Respect.
 
At this point in the game, we should all be able to operate the jet. Sim rides are good for the first 135 gig or maybe your first jet job. After that, as long as their training record isn’t a clown show, they’re good to go. If it was up to me, and it clearly isn’t, I’d give my interviewers a credit card. Block out two-three hours and take the interviewee out to dinner and drinks. Ask some basic questions about their resume but mostly learn about the candidate. Can you stand to be around this person for two to three hours? Is this person respectful and responsible? Is he going to be a good culture fit? Can I share the cockpit on a four day with this person?

/endofmyboomerrant
I see your point, but that needs to happen AFTER you're sure the guy/girl can fly. I’m sure the guy was a great to hang around with. But when crap hit the fan, his great personality couldn’t save the day.

Your first point is also assuming the candidate didn’t fall through any cracks. Consider a hospital setting. Wouldn’t you like to know the surgeon they doing your operation had his/her abilities verified by the hospital instead of “well he worked at the last place for 5 years, so he should be good”?
 
I remember during my Delta interview, I was taking one of the shrink tests. One the questions asked, "when a man see a women he is thinking about sex." Of course I'm thinking, well duhhhh.
 
No. Gouge, in the airline world, is akin to sheppard air. That is to say, "Memorize these right answers and don't even look at the questions."
That's not learning.

What you need is a ride without a script, where the interviewer can ask questions and evaluate performance real-time based on the candidate's actions and feedback. Likewise, a technical interview shouldn't be AQP style with a study guide and a list of questions—it should be free-range, based on the candidate's knowledge, experience, and the interviewer's discretion.

Hell, my SkyWest interview was like that, and it was an all-day affair with a technical interview, panel interview, etc. I narrowly missed the sim ride, though.

This is the way the real world interviews and it's baffling to me that the airlines think boilerplate "Tell me about a time you pushed wheelchairs" interview this way.
No way to know without data. Still I have a hunch requiring the applicants to do something is key.

I don’t think tech interviews using cargo cult hiring are necessarily a good model. I’m not ever going to write quick sort on the job… I’m going to call a library - because tech interviews where you memorize trivia about algorithms you wouldn’t never write on the job likely don’t demonstrate understanding. The idea is that if you want the job you’ll grind leetcode for months.

Regardless, are the employee applicants willing to put in some effort at all? That’s what I care about.

Finally, rote memorization is certainly a type of learning - I’d argue that it’s a much maligned form of learning. Remember RUAC in the FOI? I’d suggest that maybe rote memorization is critical to all the other forms. You can’t build bridges without knowing F=ma… some rote and the ability to do rote memorization is an underrated skill.
 
I see your point, but that needs to happen AFTER you're sure the guy/girl can fly. I’m sure the guy was a great to hang around with. But when crap hit the fan, his great personality couldn’t save the day.

Your first point is also assuming the candidate didn’t fall through any cracks. Consider a hospital setting. Wouldn’t you like to know the surgeon they doing your operation had his/her abilities verified by the hospital instead of “well he worked at the last place for 5 years, so he should be good”?

You realize that doctors basically have no accountability besides litigation risk after licensure, right? There are no six month check rides for a surgeon. No yearly medical exams that can kick them out for silliness like depression or diabetes. They basically just have to do easy continuing education courses with no real checking. Pilots are for more scrutinized than doctors after licensure. Doctors get weeded out in medical school, but then it’s the Wild West.
 
You realize that doctors basically have no accountability besides litigation risk after licensure, right? There are no six month check rides for a surgeon. No yearly medical exams that can kick them out for silliness like depression or diabetes. They basically just have to do easy continuing education courses with no real checking. Pilots are for more scrutinized than doctors after licensure. Doctors get weeded out in medical school, but then it’s the Wild West.
Well arguably this is part of the reason why there are 80k accidental medical deaths a year whereas basically zero major airline catastrophes.
 
I remember during my Delta interview, I was taking one of the shrink tests. One the questions asked, "when a man see a women he is thinking about sex." Of course I'm thinking, well duhhhh.
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I see your point, but that needs to happen AFTER you're sure the guy/girl can fly. I’m sure the guy was a great to hang around with. But when crap hit the fan, his great personality couldn’t save the day.

Your first point is also assuming the candidate didn’t fall through any cracks. Consider a hospital setting. Wouldn’t you like to know the surgeon they doing your operation had his/her abilities verified by the hospital instead of “well he worked at the last place for 5 years, so he should be good”?

The interviewee shooting an ILS and a hold is going to tell me next to nothing about his/her ADM. That is what I would care about and the best way to figure this out is through some CRM exercises. Again, unless he’s Colgan 3407 training record bad, we should all be able to operate the jet at this point. At some point you got to trust your training department to do their job and get them spooled up to your airline’s standards or wash them out.
 
No way to know without data. Still I have a hunch requiring the applicants to do something is key.

I don’t think tech interviews using cargo cult hiring are necessarily a good model. I’m not ever going to write quick sort on the job… I’m going to call a library - because tech interviews where you memorize trivia about algorithms you wouldn’t never write on the job likely don’t demonstrate understanding. The idea is that if you want the job you’ll grind leetcode for months.

I never had a candidate write an algorithm. I couldn't do that myself. My questions were largely based off the employees résumé, the things they did, the things they claimed, architectural questions, and questions designed to feel out the candidates experience. If someone came in with a physics degree, I might spend a while talking to them about it, though I'm not going to ask physics questions. What I want to know is what drove them to get that degree, what their passions were, what their passions are, and how they perceive the problem set that we're dealing with. Likewise, if they worked for a company or on an environment I'm familiar with, I might ask them questions about that part of the industry to suss out how accurate their resume was. In general, mostly I wanted to get a feel for the type of thinker they were. (I love interviewing)
There was zero chance a candidate could prepare for my interview in any meaningful way other than having a career, getting good experience, and doing things they were passionate about. Which, really, is the kind of prep you want. Not "I spent a few weeks getting a tailored suit and memorizing big fish stories."

Regardless, are the employee applicants willing to put in some effort at all? That’s what I care about.

Realistically, why? Other than "that's what I've been told is good," do you want a candidate who REALLY WANTS TO WORK FOR <insert company name here>, or do you want a candidate who is a real professional with the experience and knowledge to back it up? If you're working for a bank and need an IT drone, maybe the former will be fine. But if you're working in prod, you need the latter or, as they say to investors, "... the business may fail."

Finally, rote memorization is certainly a type of learning - I’d argue that it’s a much maligned form of learning. Remember RUAC in the FOI? I’d suggest that maybe rote memorization is critical to all the other forms. You can’t build bridges without knowing F=ma… some rote and the ability to do rote memorization is an underrated skill.

Rote is relatively meaningless—almost anyone can display rote memorization and replay.

This is why knowledge banking is a terrible way to run an education system, and also bad.
Let me be clear: I DON'T think tech style interviews are the way to run aviation interviews. I just think some of the techniques can be adapted for use.
 
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