Deep Thoughts: Pre-employment simulator checks

[BobDDuck]

Source? I can't find anything online that supports this.

The company I work for used a combination of MMPI, Wonderlic, and a few math/logic tests. I passed everything no problem, except the MMPI. I was told to call the psychologist they used at the time and he explained to me that because I answered "perfectly" to the drinking issues section, the test assumed I was lying, and as such degraded my credibility enough to fail the test. He suggested that when I retake it (which they let me do), I pretend that I drink some, and answer the questions as such. I did and the spike in the "validity" scale went away. The actual scale in question is the "L" (lying) scale. It tends to inflate when you answer all questions of a certain type the same way. I don't have a link or anything, although I did read an article in NEJM a year ago that talked about one of the reasons for moving from the MMPI-2 to the MMPI-3 was a need to normalize some of the deviation scales that were using 1950s data.

 

[ppragman]

The company I work for used a combination of MMPI, Wonderlic, and a few math/logic tests. I passed everything no problem, except the MMPI. I was told to call the psychologist they used at the time and he explained to me that because I answered "perfectly" to the drinking issues section, the test assumed I was lying, and as such degraded my credibility enough to fail the test. He suggested that when I retake it (which they let me do), I pretend that I drink some, and answer the questions as such. I did and the spike in the "validity" scale went away. The actual scale in question is the "L" (lying) scale. It tends to inflate when you answer all questions of a certain type the same way. I don't have a link or anything, although I did read an article in NEJM a year ago that talked about one of the reasons for moving from the MMPI-2 to the MMPI-3 was a need to normalize some of the deviation scales that were using 1950s data.

I wonder if stuff like this has scuttled me in the past... wow, that's shocking to say the least.

 

[podrick]

Who uses this MMPI as a hiring metric?

At least one legacy does the mmpi along with an interview with a psychologist. I believe the point of psychologist part is just to verify you match up with your results on the test.

Fwiw, the MMPI is widely used by psychologists and psychiatrists, so it’s a bit more in depth than the hogan or typical personality tests. Similar to what @BobDDuck said with the alcohol questions, you can “fail” if it detects lying. A lot of people get hung up on questions like “I like sex” and overthink it.

 

[BobDDuck]

I wonder if stuff like this has scuttled me in the past... wow, that's shocking to say the least.

At least they let me retake it. In the end though it ended up costing me about 40 seniority numbers, which at a (at the time) 500 pilot property that's a pretty big deal.

 

[form810]

The company I work for used a combination of MMPI, Wonderlic, and a few math/logic tests. I passed everything no problem, except the MMPI. I was told to call the psychologist they used at the time and he explained to me that because I answered "perfectly" to the drinking issues section, the test assumed I was lying, and as such degraded my credibility enough to fail the test. He suggested that when I retake it (which they let me do), I pretend that I drink some, and answer the questions as such. I did and the spike in the "validity" scale went away. The actual scale in question is the "L" (lying) scale. It tends to inflate when you answer all questions of a certain type the same way. I don't have a link or anything, although I did read an article in NEJM a year ago that talked about one of the reasons for moving from the MMPI-2 to the MMPI-3 was a need to normalize some of the deviation scales that were using 1950s data.

If any of the CYA execs who purchased those bunkum tests actually executed just a modicum of research, they'd know they're buying French Fries and calling them Broccoli. None of those psych "tests" are valid or even useful in any scientific way. I guess they're the 21st century version of "buying IBM". Nobody every got fired for buying IBM. The difference is, even if you bought IBM, you still got a pretty decent computer.

 

[jhugz]

All these tests are about hitting the middle of the bell curve. Once you know this, you just beat the test. It’s silly.

 

[SrFnFly227]

7 of the people I interviewed with at Delta had to retake the MMPI. 2 of those did not pass the second time. We were told that the test has to put out a data set that allows the psychiatrist to ask follow up questions after. My first test was failed for being too positive. My follow up questions after retaking tended to focus on hobbies/free time activities and stress relief.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If any of the CYA execs who purchased those bunkum tests actually executed just a modicum of research, they'd know they're buying French Fries and calling them Broccoli. None of those psych "tests" are valid or even useful in any scientific way. I guess they're the 21st century version of "buying IBM". Nobody every got fired for buying IBM. The difference is, even if you bought IBM, you still got a pretty decent computer.

This is completely false, as the science shows that personality and cognitive testing are the only things that matter, and interviews are entirely worthless. I recommend reading the works of Nobel prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman, specifically “Thinking, Fast and Slow.”

 

[guywhoflies]

Well, you already know my opinion on needle, ball, and airspeed. So I see the value in determining whether someone has an instrument scan and can manage the flight path and energy state of the airplane.

Back in the day I showed up for an interview and they were doing sim evals in the 727 and DC9. They had us climb at 500 fpm, then descend at 500 fpm. Then turn 90 degrees while climbing at 1000 fpm, folllwed by a turn in the other direction descending at 1000 fpm. Then they vectored us for an ILS to minimums, hand flown, no flight director.

Tough ride in an airplane you've never flown, but you could see if they had a scan and how they reacted under pressure. Nobody expected you to be the ace of the base, but if you couldn't manage that it was a good indicator that you might struggle in training.

Later when I was interviewing at Walmart they had us fly a Learjet 35 sim. Couple of turns, slow flight, and an ILS WITH a flight director - which is a waste of time. Any teenager with an XBox can fly an ILS with a flight director.

But again, that was back in the day when airplanes had six round dial gauges and scan was important. Today there's one screen, a pink line, trend indicators, scan no longer required.

So maybe the LOE type interview tests similar decision making and stress management without the expense and time of a sim eval.

Lots have changed in the last couple of decades. Some for the better, some for the worse. Personally I liked it when pilots were pilots as opposed to computer operators. Would be interesting to see how young pilots trained in Garmin 1000 equipped trainers would do in a Jetstream or a Metro or a DC9. I'm guessing not that well. But the reality is that doesn't reflect the job they do today where a better indicator of their proficiency might be whether they can eat an ice cream sundae and get the tray table closed before the airplane yells "retard" at minimums.

If you retard the thrust levers at minimums, you're gonna have a bad day.

 

[Wardogg]

At least one legacy does the mmpi along with an interview with a psychologist. I believe the point of psychologist part is just to verify you match up with your results on the test.

Fwiw, the MMPI is widely used by psychologists and psychiatrists, so it’s a bit more in depth than the hogan or typical personality tests. Similar to what @BobDDuck said with the alcohol questions, you can “fail” if it detects lying. A lot of people get hung up on questions like “I like sex” and overthink it.

Oof. Is one not allowed to like sex? Or are people denying that they like sex? And what's the point of the question in the first place?

 

[///AMG]

If you retard the thrust levers at minimums, you're gonna have a bad day.

Maybe not on an HGS/Cat III hybrid?

 

[SteveC]

Maybe not on an HGS/Cat III hybrid?

...or at KASE.

 

[roundout]

Oof. Is one not allowed to like sex? Or are people denying that they like sex? And what's the point of the question in the first place?

I think people think "gosh, that's a weird question for an Air Line to ask. I wonder how they want me to answer?" and it creates a feedback loop of an individual trying to outsmart a bunch of strange questions. A lot of doubt seeps in, and fast.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I think people think "gosh, that's a weird question for an Air Line to ask. I wonder how they want me to answer?" and it creates a feedback loop of an individual trying to outsmart a bunch of strange questions. A lot of doubt seeps in, and fast.

And to think, there are pilots who defend this garbage.

 

[derg]

And to think, there are pilots who defend this garbage.

I think they'll sleep well, in spite of your opinion. Maybe even have a delicious breakfast.

I love breakfast. Soft scrambled eggs with white pepper and a dusting of Lawry's seasoning salt. So good.

 

[jhugz]

I think they'll sleep well, in spite of your opinion. Maybe even have a delicious breakfast.

I love breakfast. Soft scrambled eggs with white pepper and a dusting of Lawry's seasoning salt. So good.

Why white pepper over black pepper? Is it better…never had it. Also am I the only person that can’t stand Chef Ramsey’s eggs? I don’t want egg soup.

 

[BobDDuck]

Why white pepper over black pepper? Is it better…never had it.

Get on that ish!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I think they'll sleep well, in spite of your opinion. Maybe even have a delicious breakfast.

I love breakfast. Soft scrambled eggs with white pepper and a dusting of Lawry's seasoning salt. So good.

I didn’t interfere with their sleep habits or breakfast preferences. Merely stated some pilots defend that garbage.

I’ll take egg whites with regular black pepper and hold the salt.

 

[roundout]

And to think, there are pilots who defend this garbage.

It is what it is. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Or not.

 

[derg]

I didn’t interfere with their sleep habits or breakfast preferences. Merely stated some pilots defend that garbage.

I’ll take egg whites with regular black pepper and hold the salt.

Sir, breakfast ended at 10am.

Pilots defend all sorts of good, bad and normal things.

You know you have pilots that support “right to work” initiatives while also complaining about what ALPA didn’t do for them and how they filed 15 grievances before noon.