FPTLD vs No-Furlough Agreements

[Skåning]

Scope is always a thing. Just think of it as who can do flying on behalf of the Company. In B6's case it's pilots on the JB Seniority List. That is not something that was given away for no furloughs....

COUGH *Alaska* COUGH

 

[roundout]

I remember the union using that term "Sweet fleet plan" now lol

it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.



I think that's what most pilots did - Eagle was around 3200 pilots I think pre AA/Eagle bankruptsy. within a year or two, everyone had left for greener pastures at majors/cargo/LCC and Eagle was down to less than 1200-1300 pilots within two years and scrambling to keep pilots - they even had to temporarily stop transferring planes to PSA because PSA couldn't staff the planes Eagle was transferring to them.

But it was a boon for the new Eagle/Envoy pilots post 2014 coming in with forced captain upgrades and less than 1 month captain upgrades if you had the prior 121 experience. If I had stayed for the flow to AA, instead of leaving in 2013, I would have flowed to AA in 2018 (when my sim partner the Eagle MEC chairman flowed to AA) and now be looking at all of these events from the bottom of the AA seniority list instead of 6 years of ULCC seniority and hoping my ULCC doesn't go bankrupt riding these sea state 6 waves.

I'm kind of in the same boat. Loved Eagle until November 2011. Absolutely detested it, hated it, despised it until I got out in 2015. Sometimes I wondered retrospectively about flowing to AA and life choices, but right now I like my chances at my little ULCC a lot more than "what if" I had flowed 9 months ago.

edit: The "sweet fleet plan" guy was Derg Gibbs. Careful with that one.

 

[jtrain609]

Totally get that at a carrier with RJs. Has B6 management ever indicated they wanted to move the 190s to someone else?


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That's not the issue.

The issue is that without a solid scope section, the company COULD move the 190's to someone else.

Hell, they could move the Airbus fleet to someone else.

They could literally farm the entire airline out to a regional.

You don't buy insurance expecting your house to burn down. Scope, like insurance, is to protect yourself against downside risk.

 

[jtrain609]

Also, if ya'll don't think JetBlue ALPA knocked this one clear out of the park, you don't know what you're looking at.

 

[bimmerphile]

Also, if ya'll don't think JetBlue ALPA knocked this one clear out of the park, you don't know what you're looking at.

People keep blabbing that "you don't know til you see the details," but modifications to the furlough mitigation section don't seem particularly nefarious off the bat. Stoked for many of my junior friends there.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

That’s really heinous. I think I would rage quit. I can really see why anybody who went through that would have no appetite for trying to find a win-win.


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I wasn’t at Eagle, but I saw a lot of similar shenanigans at ASA at the hands of Skywest. Not a whole lot more rage inducing than barely making ends meet only to be told you’re “too expensive” and watch your airplanes head to a non union shop. Meanwhile the bros there are all “that sucks man...I’m just here for the quick upgrade and west coast bases.

I will piss on the grave of that company if it ever goes out of business.

 

[amichael]

Also, if ya'll don't think JetBlue ALPA knocked this one clear out of the park, you don't know what you're looking at.

Can you expand on this? While a promise to not furlough is great, don't JB pilots not know what was conceded to secure that promise?

 

[BobDDuck]

Can you expand on this? While a promise to not furlough is great, don't JB pilots not know what was conceded to secure that promise?

There is a list of about 5 items in 23.A (I think that was the reference) of their CBA that can be addressed during furlough mitigation talks. The amount of damage that can be done by moving any of those levers is relatively small compared with the benefit of protecting a large number of their pilots.

I haven't been following the situation over there too closely (more worried about my own little island right now) but extending the protected timeline 6 months, especially when there is a solid chance of recovery within a year of that new date seems like a big win, even more so when you consider that with only 2 fleet types the cascade of displacement training costs would be low.

 

[jtrain609]

Can you expand on this? While a promise to not furlough is great, don't JB pilots not know what was conceded to secure that promise?

Jimmy nailed it on the head, as usual.

 

[statusseeker1]

Also, if ya'll don't think JetBlue ALPA knocked this one clear out of the park, you don't know what you're looking at.

Shouldn’t the pilots have been able to vote, though? Good or bad, the MEC just did it themselves. Unions sure like to use the word “Unilaterally” against companies, but that seems pretty unilateral.

 

[jtrain609]

Shouldn’t the pilots have been able to vote, though? Good or bad, the MEC just did it themselves. Unions sure like to use the word “Unilaterally” against companies, but that seems pretty unilateral.

No.

Not every change requires member ratification.

And this is the stuff to me that's mind blowing. JetBlue ALPA just saved hundreds of jobs on the exact same day that Delta sent out 2,558 WARN letters, and people are complaining about not voting on the issue (when it isn't required), even though the section modified is de minimus in the totality of the contract.

Every • Wednesday.

 

[mwflyer]

There is a list of about 5 items in 23.A (I think that was the reference) of their CBA that can be addressed during furlough mitigation talks. The amount of damage that can be done by moving any of those levers is relatively small compared with the benefit of protecting a large number of their pilots.

I haven't been following the situation over there too closely (more worried about my own little island right now) but extending the protected timeline 6 months, especially when there is a solid chance of recovery within a year of that new date seems like a big win, even more so when you consider that with only 2 fleet types the cascade of displacement training costs would be low.

Is there someplace non JB pilots can see the contract?

 

[BobDDuck]

Is there someplace non JB pilots can see the contract?

Generally no. I'm not sure why, but airline labor contracts don't get publicly shared. I'm not sure if that's an airline specific thing or general union thing.

 

[BobDDuck]

Shouldn’t the pilots have been able to vote, though? Good or bad, the MEC just did it themselves. Unions sure like to use the word “Unilaterally” against companies, but that seems pretty unilateral.

This is the same as how our normal democracy works (most of the time). You elect people you trust to make decisions for you. You trade away the ability to vote on every single item for the benefit of not having to actually see how the sausage gets made. There are times and certain things that do necessitate a full on vote of the pilot group, and just where that line falls varies from group to group, but this item at B6 was not one of them. When the pilots there voted to ratify the CBA during section 6, section 23.A was included in that ratification and gives the NC and MEC (and Company) the ability to make changes to specific sections for short periods of time, in exchange for furlough protections. So in a sense, a vote on this already happened.

 

[bimmerphile]

Is there someplace non JB pilots can see the contract?

it was available via google search on their alpa site, the link is now dead

 

[mwflyer]

Generally no. I'm not sure why, but airline labor contracts don't get publicly shared. I'm not sure if that's an airline specific thing or general union thing.

Is anybody able to give the cliff notes, or is it still hush-hush?

 

[z987k]

Generally no. I'm not sure why, but airline labor contracts don't get publicly shared. I'm not sure if that's an airline specific thing or general union thing.

They're quite available. All you normally have to do is ask. Sometimes they're on the front page of a union's website.

And it's in labor's interest for it to be as public as possible.

 

[Baronman]

Is anybody able to give the cliff notes, or is it still hush-hush?

Prior to furlough the company and union should meet to discuss furlough mitigation Including but not limited to the following,
1. Bid divisors
2. RSV periods
3. Credit caps
4. Part time awards
5. Early retirement incentives

 

[mwflyer]

Prior to furlough the company and union should meet to discuss furlough mitigation Including but not limited to the following,
1. Bid divisors
2. RSV periods
3. Credit caps
4. Part time awards
5. Early retirement incentives

Thanks.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

B6 Does NOT have a Force Majeure clause. They do have good scope.
The No furlough LOA is anyone's guess as to what is in it as it is all NDA still for some reason or another.
The May 2021 end date is curious, as I believe that is the same time Breeze wants start flying and they will start with 190's.