FPTLD vs No-Furlough Agreements

[Flyinthrew]

So...The first new No-Furlough agreement of the COVID era has hit the street. Seems the pilot group doesn't even know what they gave up. Do No-Furlough agreements work for labor? Did EVERYBODY get burned in 2001 and/or 2008/9 or did it work out for anybody? What about before the Lost Decade? You have to admit, there was nowhere to hide in that period in this industry so I understand the Full Pay Till The Last Day crowd, but is there ANYTHING that works? It would appear that it has worked at FedEx, but it's already baked in, so things that are concessions somewhere else is more like pain-sharing that they know about already when they accept the job offer. What about cutting line values? Unlike pay rates or scope, management sure as hell is going to want to give that back when demand returns.

The intent is not to negotiate in public or to yell down boomers or to laugh at millennials. I genuinely want to know opinions and experiences from a group I respect, some of which have MEC experience.

 

[bimmerphile]

Maybe. I think a lot of people are FPTLD because management just pulled down billions of dollars in loans, and concessions on pay would help the company extend the lifeline by maybe a couple days or a handful of weeks, and they know that it won't save the company if it comes down to that. Not sure how that would factor into the eventual bankruptcy contract if it came to it, either. The sheer magnitude of the debt is mind boggling.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I was terminated from my part 91 Falcon 900 job in 2016. It was because I insisted on two weeks off for the birth of my son, Myles. During my exit interview with the principal he started to heckle me. "What are you going to do now? You're going to go to the airlines? Do you understand how leveraged the airlines are?"

Looks like those chickens came home to roost.

 

[upup89]

I was terminated from my part 91 Falcon 900 job in 2016. It was because I insisted on two weeks off for the birth of my son, Myles. During my exit interview with the principal he started to heckle me. "What are you going to do now? You're going to go to the airlines? Do you understand how leveraged the airlines are?"

Looks like those chickens came home to roost.

That reminds me of back in late 2009 when I asked for a day off from my part 135 cargo job to interview at a regional. The boss told me they were just hiring for the Christmas season and they would furlough me right after New Years and I’d be an idiot to want to go to the airlines. Personally, I thought his premonition was an odd one as the regional had made it clear they weren’t planning classes until February/March. Short story shorter, I’ve only got one life to live and I’ll never have regrets shooting my shot.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

No furlough agreements basically do nothing for you at all if bankruptcy becomes reality. I’m generally in the camp that you don’t accept any concessions at all if you think bankruptcy might be a possibility. If bankruptcy might be avoidable, then that’s a bit of a different story. I don’t think any major airline avoids bankruptcy this go around.

 

[Baronman]

No furlough agreements basically do nothing for you at all if bankruptcy becomes reality. I’m generally in the camp that you don’t accept any concessions at all if you think bankruptcy might be a possibility. If bankruptcy might be avoidable, then that’s a bit of a different story. I don’t think any major airline avoids bankruptcy this go around.

I would argue that an October furlough is much more likely than B6 going into BK prior to May 2021.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I was furlough protected at ASA when I was there. It worked as advertised, they furloughed right up to the bottom class (You has to be hired before the contract was signed) and stopped. That said I think it’s just because they didn’t feel like fighting that battle.

 

[woodreau]

When the American Eagle MEC negotiated the no-furlough clause in 2012?/2013? Or was it 2008? Don’t remember. They gave up the provision that pilots go with the airplanes to another airline if airplanes are transferred to another airline with a 5 year time limitation on pilots being able to come back to the American Eagle Seniority list if they wanted.

the Union never got the number of pilots they were going to keep, The company kept pressing by Threatening furloughs.they just got “assurances” that eagle was going to keep “x” number of airplanes.

at the time American Eagle owned all 230 some odd airplanes that the regional airline flew. The very next day after the pilot group ratified the no furlough amendment to the contract. Every airplane had a new pink registration certificate - all 230 some odd airplanes had been transferred enmasse to American Airlines.

then our planes were transferred from American Airlines to PSA, Compass, and farmed our to other regionals.

 

[Baronman]

The B6 Blastmail specifically references a section in our contract and scope is not on the table. Keep in mind this is till May 2021 and includes a snapback.

 

[Flyinthrew]

When the American Eagle MEC negotiated the no-furlough clause in 2012?/2013? Or was it 2008? Don’t remember. They gave up the provision that pilots go with the airplanes to another airline if airplanes are transferred to another airline with a 5 year time limitation on pilots being able to come back to the American Eagle Seniority list if they wanted.

the Union never got the number of pilots they were going to keep, The company kept pressing by Threatening furloughs.they just got “assurances” that eagle was going to keep “x” number of airplanes.

at the time American Eagle owned all 230 some odd airplanes that the regional airline flew. The very next day after the pilot group ratified the no furlough amendment to the contract. Every airplane had a new pink registration certificate - all 230 some odd airplanes had been transferred enmasse to American Airlines.

then our planes were transferred from American Airlines to PSA, Compass, and farmed our to other regionals.

That’s really heinous. I think I would rage quit. I can really see why anybody who went through that would have no appetite for trying to find a win-win.


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[Flyinthrew]

The B6 Blastmail specifically references a section in our contract and scope is not on the table. Keep in mind this is till May 2021 and includes a snapback.

Is scope even a thing at B6? Maybe my understanding of scope is wrong.

I like that it gets them through until we can see what summer ‘21 might look like and it.


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[Baronman]

Is scope even a thing at B6? Maybe my understanding of scope is wrong.

I like that it gets them through until we can see what summer ‘21 might look like and it.


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Scope is always a thing. Just think of it as who can do flying on behalf of the Company. In B6's case it's pilots on the JB Seniority List. That is not something that was given away for no furloughs....

I agree that the timing (May '21) might have been advantageous for the company as well. On the one hand they'd like to cut costs (pilots ASAP) however if there's an inkling that they'll be needed by summer of 2021, then it's really not harming them to keep those pilots on board until then.

 

[roundout]

the Union never got the number of pilots they were going to keep, The company kept pressing by Threatening furloughs.they just got “assurances” that eagle was going to keep “x” number of airplanes.


then our planes were transferred from American Airlines to PSA, Compass, and farmed our to other regionals.

Something something "pretty sweet fleet plan"

 

[Snuggle]

Is scope even a thing at B6? Maybe my understanding of scope is wrong.

Arguably the most important section of our (any) contract. That section alone heavily influenced my Yes vote.

 

[woodreau]

I remember the union using that term "Sweet fleet plan" now lol

it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

That’s really heinous. I think I would rage quit. I can really see why anybody who went through that would have no appetite for trying to find a win-win.

I think that's what most pilots did - Eagle was around 3200 pilots I think pre AA/Eagle bankruptsy. within a year or two, everyone had left for greener pastures at majors/cargo/LCC and Eagle was down to less than 1200-1300 pilots within two years and scrambling to keep pilots - they even had to temporarily stop transferring planes to PSA because PSA couldn't staff the planes Eagle was transferring to them.

But it was a boon for the new Eagle/Envoy pilots post 2014 coming in with forced captain upgrades and less than 1 month captain upgrades if you had the prior 121 experience. If I had stayed for the flow to AA, instead of leaving in 2013, I would have flowed to AA in 2018 (when my sim partner the Eagle MEC chairman flowed to AA) and now be looking at all of these events from the bottom of the AA seniority list instead of 6 years of ULCC seniority and hoping my ULCC doesn't go bankrupt riding these sea state 6 waves.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Arguably the most important section of our (any) contract. That section alone heavily influenced my Yes vote.

Totally get that at a carrier with RJs. Has B6 management ever indicated they wanted to move the 190s to someone else?


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[Soku39]

I remember the union using that term "Sweet fleet plan" now lol

it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.



I think that's what most pilots did - Eagle was around 3200 pilots I think pre AA/Eagle bankruptsy. within a year or two, everyone had left for greener pastures at majors/cargo/LCC and Eagle was down to less than 1200-1300 pilots within two years and scrambling to keep pilots - they even had to temporarily stop transferring planes to PSA because PSA couldn't staff the planes Eagle was transferring to them.

But it was a boon for the new Eagle/Envoy pilots post 2014 coming in with forced captain upgrades and less than 1 month captain upgrades if you had the prior 121 experience. If I had stayed for the flow to AA, instead of leaving in 2013, I would have flowed to AA in 2018 (when my sim partner the Eagle MEC chairman flowed to AA) and now be looking at all of these events from the bottom of the AA seniority list instead of 6 years of ULCC seniority and hoping my ULCC doesn't go bankrupt riding these sea state 6 waves.

As someone that should have flowed to AA last month, this is a crazy crazy post to read. Let's see what happens, I think Spirit will be A-ok.

 

[Baronman]

Totally get that at a carrier with RJs. Has B6 management ever indicated they wanted to move the 190s to someone else?


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I’m sure at some point in history somebody in B6 management had the bright idea to have Skywest fly our 190s. Doesn’t matter at this point. We have scope locked down and the 190’s are going to the RC Cola factory as the A220s start arriving this year. And there’s no way we’re giving up those aircraft to a regional.

 

[Snuggle]

Totally get that at a carrier with RJs. Has B6 management ever indicated they wanted to move the 190s to someone else?


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I would argue it is equally important even at a carrier without FFD agreements. Every couple of years management names change. Just because a company doesn’t have RJ’s now, doesn’t mean that will continue. A CBA with a solid scope section is worth more than their indications.

 

[Nark]

Spirit will be “fine” but it depends on your perspective.
The days of manipulating your schedule to get 150-200 hours are long gone. If you can’t pay your life’s bills based upon 72 hours, you might be greatly disappointed.