Video of forced landing in Australia

[USMCmech]

it's an unnecessary risk...not required to gain the skills, unlike spins.

It is required to gain confidence.

.what if it doesn't start back up?

It has to, the laws of physics force it to. The prop is still spinning, the mags are still firing the spark plugs, and plenty of air is entering the cylinders. Once you introduce fuel, combustion resumes.

 

[JeppUpdater]

I'm curious what a mechanic would say of this...shutting a piston down in the air is shock cooling to the extreme, regardless of setup.

I've taught and checked many pilots on feathered-prop landings in the Caravan...it's something that requires plenty of caution and planning (the 'van takes ages to come out of feather), but it is of course important to be proficient in engine-out operations.

I would never, ever do it in a piston.

 

[Area 5150]

Dangerous????

Fill her up and check the oil please, thank you!!

 

[USMCmech]

I'm curious what a mechanic would say of this...shutting a piston down in the air is shock cooling to the extreme, regardless of setup.

Not even an issue.

Virtually all training aircraft run very cool in the first place. Secondly, the biggest cooling factor in a piston engine is airflow through the cylinders, NOT power. With a constant airspeed (and therefore airflow through the cowling) you will never see "shock cooling".

I'm glad you brought up the Caravan landing with the prop feathered. I remember doing this in my initial training as part of a FAA approved training program, and with a POI riding in the jumpseat.

 

[thevideographer]

It is required to gain confidence.

Eh, sounds more like CFIs showing off or having fun to me. Are you saying that the 99% of pilots who have never done this maneuver, and probably never will are lacking confidence? I'm pretty confident in my ability to dead-stick a Cessna to a field, I don't feel the need to do it for real just to 'boost my confidence'.

While I'm posting, I'd like to share what my CFI did to boost my confidence. On our very first flight, after the aerodynamic demo, he said "okay, watch this". Then he pulled the throttle to idle and pitched for best glide. He pointed out to the horizon and showed me how far the plane could glide from 3000 feet, then pointed out all of the fields within that distance. I wasn't nervous to begin with, but it's something I plan on doing with my students just in case they are concerned about an engine failure. No need for Macho to get the point across.

 

[Area 5150]

You could ask for the engine to keep working!

True, but engines are like kids, they don't listen, most of the time!

I've begged them until I was blue in the face.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I just got off the phone with a balloon pilot who does it professionally in the Napa Valley. He said that a balloon without fire/gas would come down similarly to a parachute...and he would rather have that emergency than one in which he lost his engine (SE Ops). It's a simple matter of physics...drop a balloon without air in it and it drops, fill up a balloon and tie it off and drop it and it comes down much more gently. He said 13 mph descent rate. Let's see 13mph of energy vs a minimum of 70mph at best glide...uh no brainer.

I'm going with the professional...

I professionally flew LTA and can tell you, I'd take 70MPH where I can control exactly where I'm going versus 13 MPH to wherever the hell the wind takes me. But whatever, it's not really relevant.

Come to think of it, I had a 141 (private) stage check in which the check airman pulled the mixture in a 172 roughly 4000 ft AGL.

 

[Ash Williams]

Edit: One thing that is shown in many of these videos the I do NOT do is stopping the prop. I keep the prop spinning all the way to touchdown. This is more realistic to a true engine failure, and keeps the engine in a ready to restart condition. If the prop is still spinning, all you need to do is re introduce some mixture and it will start producing power again.

Oh YOU keep the propeller windmilling? What airspeed does it stop? What are you doing that's different in the videos where the propeller is stopped? Best glide+10?

Also, would you be OK with your student doing this while taking their friends or family flying? Because that's what they are going to do. For me? I try not to do anything I wouldn't want my student doing with his family on board. With the exception of demo stalls, spins, etc.

Sooo... why don't you take the 'confidence building' one step further and take they key out and set it on the dash. I mean... After all, all you need to do is push the mixture in, put the key in, and turn it to both. That would REALLY build confidence, eh? 60% of the time, it works every time!

Either way, for "simulated" engine failures, I'm trying to build proficiency over confidence. Confidence should come from actually being good at something. Not just landing with the mixture pulled. I mean, 'Wow! Neat trick! Thanks for teaching me that, I can't wait to show my buddy when we rent a plane next weekend!' I mean, does that thought not cross your mind that they might do that? And for proficiency, what difference does it make if the mixture is pulled or if the power is set to idle?

Not to mention that in a real emergency, muscle memory plays an important role. I want my kids actually turning the boost pump on, switching the fuel selectors, pushing the mixture rich, etc.

 

[tlewis95]

I have done this in the past, and will do so in the future.

This training event is a major confidence builder for the student. Given the many shocked responses in this thread and other places, I believe that many pilots do not truly believe that they can actually glide a single engine airplane to a safe landing. However, once you have done it once for real, you will gain that confidence.

I take the same attitude toward spins. "Who needs to demonstrate a spin for a primary student? The PTS doesn't require it, and there is a risk that you could lose control." I demonstrate spins to all my students at least once. I don't care if they never see one again but I don't want the first spin they ever see to be at pattern altitude.

Now, of course I understand that this training scenario has the potential to go badly wrong. Needless to say I approach this scenario VERY carefully. I plan for it and try to mitigate those risks. I prefer to do this from several thousand feet above an uncontrolled airport with several open fields around. I make sure there is no traffic anywhere nearby. We must be assured of making the runway to continue below 800 AGL, which allows plenty of time to feed the mixture back in and restore power to the already spinning engine.

I don't judge another CFI who chooses not to go this route, but I find it to be very educational for my students.

I am late to the thread but this. ^

I very rarely take the landings all the way to the ground though - generally only with fellow CFIs or really experienced pilots on Flight Reviews and while mitigating all of the other risks associated with weather, traffic, terrain, airport etc. Giving a student the chance to see, hear, and feel what the airplane is like with the prop stopped is a great confidence boost and demonstration of stress to them. I generally brief them only just before we are about to do it at 7000' so that they don't have time to think about it and get UN-nervous but also so they don't panic and do something dumb. I want to see how they react and run the restart checklist while dealing with the REAL stress factors caused by the prop not turning. Generally we float around for a minute or so while picking a 'field' which is always the huge, quiet airport that we happen to be directly over, and from there run the troubleshoot and restarting checklist back to cruise. Generally we are running again by 5000' AGL and most of the time I will then pull the power to idle and have them go land at the airport below us anyway. Occasionally if we are even higher I have them demo a 'windmill' start which takes about 120kts in a C172 and has worked every single time for me. Students always tell me that it was a positive experience for them and one who had an engine failure on a cross country two years later said that this exercise removed a lot of the panic and fear which helped him stay composed and work the scenario to a successful outcome on a road. Removing the 'fear of the unknown' and replacing it with a 'respect for the unknown' helps to make safe and confident pilots in any case. My only reason for going skydiving was so that if I am ever in a glider that is coming apart at 1,000' my decision to get out would come quicker if I knew what it was going to be like once I pulled the red levers and rolled on out. Now I never need to go skydiving again because that one jump might get me a second or two closer to a survivable bail-out someday.

I am much more comfortable doing this in a controlled environment than I am feathering an engine in a twin with a student and fail to see the difference between this, a motor-glider, or a real glider. They are all flying in the same situation and energy management technique just with the added safety of an engine! To each their own though - I certainty wouldn't want anyone who isn't VERY comfortable with glider flying and energy management to go trying it on their own or with students.

 

[tlewis95]

Oh YOU keep the propeller windmilling? What airspeed does it stop? What are you doing that's different in the videos where the propeller is stopped? Best glide+10?



Also, would you be OK with your student doing this while taking their friends or family flying? Because that's what they are going to do. For me? I try not to do anything I wouldn't want my student doing with his family on board. With the exception of demo stalls, spins, etc.

In most low compression '4-bangers' you need to practically slow down to a stall for it to stop windmilling but then it takes a lot of speed to get it turning on its own again. I would not be ok with students doing this on their own and I have avoided doing it with many students that I know WOULD try to use it to show off to their friends. Part of the briefing also includes my risk mitigation process,a briefing of why we are doing what we are doing, and why it is safe in the situation that minute - with me - and what could happen if they were to do it solo.

Sooo... why don't you take the 'confidence building' one step further and take they key out and set it on the dash. I mean... After all, all you need to do is push the mixture in, put the key in, and turn it to both. That would REALLY build confidence, eh? 60% of the time, it works every time!

Sure, why not? The risk at that point has been mitigated down low enough that if for whatever freak reason the engine decided not to restart, a landing on the 7,000' long runway below would be a non-event.

Either way, for "simulated" engine failures, I'm trying to build proficiency over confidence. Confidence should come from actually being good at something. Not just landing with the mixture pulled. I mean, 'Wow! Neat trick! Thanks for teaching me that, I can't wait to show my buddy when we rent a plane next weekend!' I mean, does that thought not cross your mind that they might do that? And for proficiency, what difference does it make if the mixture is pulled or if the power is set to idle?

Not to mention that in a real emergency, muscle memory plays an important role. I want my kids actually turning the boost pump on, switching the fuel selectors, pushing the mixture rich, etc.

It does cross my mind and see above. The muscle memory will still be active no matter how you induced the simulated emergency correct? Either way they get to run the checklist, but with the power at idle they might not feel to rushed or stressed to get it done. The deadstick part gives them a chance to get an idea how they will actually feel and behave with an engine out.

 

[Bumblebee]

that is truly what I love about this place...different strokes for different folks.

 

[USMCmech]

Oh YOU keep the propeller windmilling? What airspeed does it stop? What are you doing that's different in the videos where the propeller is stopped? Best glide+10?

If you had ever seen this demo, you would know that stopping the prop on most light trainers requires slowing to just above stall speed. Pitching for best glide will keep the prop spinning 100% of the time.

Also, would you be OK with your student doing this while taking their friends or family flying? Because that's what they are going to do. For me? I try not to do anything I wouldn't want my student doing with his family on board. With the exception of demo stalls, spins, etc.

I don't work with students that are idiots. This is a straw-man argument, I do not subscribe to the argument that all student pilots are reckless idiots who will immediately copy every crazy thing they saw their CFI do.

Sooo... why don't you take the 'confidence building' one step further and take they key out and set it on the dash.

I've seen that done, but would never try it myself. That is just a bit past my comfort zone.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Safety" is an opinion no different than music or art. Saying something is "safe" is saying that said operation is not outside your comfort zone. The idea of me flying over a forest fire in the mountains would be well beyond my risk threshold, but hundreds of pilots do so daily. I consider pulling the mixture in flight to be perfectly safe when done in the proper circumstances. You obviously don't, and I respect that.

What I do have a problem is when people judge "safety" without any experience. Those of us who are arguing for this type of training demo have done it many times and have spoken how it is a non event. Most of those who are aghast at us reckless CFIs have never seen it done.

 

[Ash Williams]

The muscle memory WILL be active no matter how you induced the emergency. So you have your kids push the mixture back in when they go through the flow and checklist? Or just leave it? See what I mean. Some goofy instructors probably just have the kid leave it.

And yeh, landing on a 7,000 foot runway would be a non-event... unless you had to go around.

May as well take it another step further and toss the keys over your shoulder. Where does it end?

I get what you mean about trying to create the exact sounds and feeling of an engine failure. And I see some benefits of what you are saying. So far, you are the only one on the "pull the mixture" side that makes any sense.

However, what you do is duplicated to other pilots or instructors who may not be as wise. And that is why I think the risk down the line doesn't justify the reward. Basically, I wouldn't want a school full of instructors pulling the mixture. Because you know as well as I do, a good number of them are clowns.

Funny story about muscle memory: You know how some people set the keys on the dash after engine shutdown? An instructor (not me) was simulating an engine failure (with power idle). He was just about to tell the student to go around at about 600 feet above the trees when the student was getting to the "ignition off" part of the checklist. You guessed it- the student took the keys out and set them on the dash! He said he used his super calm voice to get them to put the keys back in and turn it to both.

 

[USMCmech]

Occasionally if we are even higher I have them demo a 'windmill' start which takes about 120kts in a C172 and has worked every single time for me. Students always tell me that it was a positive experience for them and one who had an engine failure on a cross country two years later said that this exercise removed a lot of the panic and fear which helped him stay composed and work the scenario to a successful outcome on a road.

Having taught this demo several times helped me the first time I suffered an actual engine failure. I was doing slow flight and the prop actually did stop. While trying to restart, we had trouble getting the starter to engage, but I remembered that we could windmill the prop by increasing our airspeed. Which is exactly what I did.

 

[bLizZuE]

Oh great, this argument again

Actually, they are. I am amazed ho many CFIs don't understand that engines behave exactly the same regardless if there is one or two. The propeller will continue spinning, and therefore all systems will continue operating exactly as before. Oil pressure, alternator, magnetos, and the prop governor will continue to work exactly as before.

When teaching engine failures, my first point of briefing is that the Cessna is a perfectly good glider.

Flight training is a high risk environment. Yes, we all understand that pulling the mixture in flight is an added risk and it should only be undertaken in an environment that offsets this risk.

Engines do not behave exactly the same when there is one versus two. We wouldn't have MEIs if they did.

You're talking about idling an engine, rframe is talking about purposefully shutting it down.

Flight training is a high risk environment, which is exactly why you shouldn't introduce more risk unnecessarily.

 

[bLizZuE]

I have done this in the past, and will do so in the future.

This training event is a major confidence builder for the student. Given the many shocked responses in this thread and other places, I believe that many pilots do not truly believe that they can actually glide a single engine airplane to a safe landing. However, once you have done it once for real, you will gain that confidence.

I take the same attitude toward spins. "Who needs to demonstrate a spin for a primary student? The PTS doesn't require it, and there is a risk that you could lose control." I demonstrate spins to all my students at least once. I don't care if they never see one again but I don't want the first spin they ever see to be at pattern altitude.

Now, of course I understand that this training scenario has the potential to go badly wrong. Needless to say I approach this scenario VERY carefully. I plan for it and try to mitigate those risks. I prefer to do this from several thousand feet above an uncontrolled airport with several open fields around. I make sure there is no traffic anywhere nearby. We must be assured of making the runway to continue below 800 AGL, which allows plenty of time to feed the mixture back in and restore power to the already spinning engine.

I don't judge another CFI who chooses not to go this route, but I find it to be very educational for my students.

Edit: One thing that is shown in many of these videos the I do NOT do is stopping the prop. I keep the prop spinning all the way to touchdown. This is more realistic to a true engine failure, and keeps the engine in a ready to restart condition. If the prop is still spinning, all you need to do is re introduce some mixture and it will start producing power again.

I don't think the confidence boost is required. I have solo'd a lot of students and I don't think any of them needed a confidence boost in engine out scenarios to the tune of shutting off an engine in flight. If a pilot doesn't believe he can glide an airplane to a safe landing then he hasn't met the PTS for a PPL.

Demonstrating spins is great, but I can demonstrate engine out scenarios to a student without putting myself and the student in a high-risk situation.

I will give you credit for not letting the prop stop, but still feel that shutting the engine off intentionally is negligent and unnecessary.

 

[USMCmech]

Engines do not behave exactly the same when there is one versus two. We wouldn't have MEIs if they did.

Wrong,

Engines behave EXACTLY the same, the airplane they are attached to does not.

You're talking about idling an engine, rframe is talking about purposefully shutting it down.

By pulling the mixture in flight, you are shutting down combustion. When you re-enrichen the mixture, combustion resumes.

 

[bLizZuE]

Wrong,

Engines behave EXACTLY the same, the airplane they are attached to does not.



By pulling the mixture in flight, you are shutting down combustion. When you re-enrichen the mixture, combustion resumes.

Ok fine. Engines behave the same. Shutting down one on a multi versus a *single* is different. How does that embolden your choice to enter an emergency scenario on purpose?

 

[Area 5150]

that is truly what I love about this place...different strokes for different folks.

 

[USMCmech]

FIFY

How does that embolden your choice to enter an excellent training scenario on purpose?

Look, I respect your opinion that pulling the mixture in flight is too risky for you.

What I am telling you is that I have found it to be an excellent training opportunity, and the risks that you correctly bring up are easily managed. I believe the the reward my students gain from this demo outweigh those risks.