Bumblebee
Commodore
is it an emergency if a motor glider's engine fails at 10,000'?
Video of forced landing in Australia
- Thread starter JeppUpdater
- Start date
rframe
pǝʇɹǝʌuı
That depends on what terrain it's over, just like the Cessna.
I've glided a Cessna 172 dead stick well over 10 miles from 10,000' with a spiral to land at a 600' MSL airport. We used to do it after doing aerial photo work every day.
Bumblebee
Commodore
A Cessna is not designed to be flown as a glider...
Bumblebee
Commodore
and I used to go from Cal Expo into SAC with the engine pulled back too to practice...just never would shut off the engine.
That's what the conversation is about...shutting off a perfectly good engine for demonstration of an emergency is no longer a demonstration...it is an application of part of an emergency procedure...one of the first steps of which, however, is to
wait for it
...RESTART the engine LOL.
That's what the conversation is about...shutting off a perfectly good engine for demonstration of an emergency is no longer a demonstration...it is an application of part of an emergency procedure...one of the first steps of which, however, is to
wait for it
...RESTART the engine LOL.
rframe
pǝʇɹǝʌuı
Bumblebee
Commodore
what's that for? best glide in an emergency!
...not hey let's shut off the engine on purpose.
OK, I have to get moving...this will be fun to read aloud at NJC
Bumblebee
Commodore
I hate trees, nature, and kittens.Gas waster!
Club some baby seals while you're at it next time
bLizZuE
Calling for engine starts en français
what's that for? best glide in an emergency!
...not hey let's shut off the engine on purpose.
OK, I have to get moving...this will be fun to read aloud at NJC
You and I are drinking a beer while laughing at this.
thevideographer
Well-Known Member
I'm sure that killing an engine is completely uneventful for a CFI and yada yada yada. But,
What is this teaching? Not to panic if the engine quits? Sure, that's nice, but it's not the reason we practice engine failures to begin with. The hard parts of handling an engine failure are finding a spot to land, setting up for it, prioritizing what needs to be done and running checklists. Does the student learn any of that if you pull the mixture at 5000' directly over an airport?
Also keep in mind that students need to make mistakes in order to learn. If you actually kill the engine there is no room for error - the instructor will have to immediately correct anything that goes wrong. What is the student getting out of it if the instructor is micro-managing the situation?
What is this teaching? Not to panic if the engine quits? Sure, that's nice, but it's not the reason we practice engine failures to begin with. The hard parts of handling an engine failure are finding a spot to land, setting up for it, prioritizing what needs to be done and running checklists. Does the student learn any of that if you pull the mixture at 5000' directly over an airport?
Also keep in mind that students need to make mistakes in order to learn. If you actually kill the engine there is no room for error - the instructor will have to immediately correct anything that goes wrong. What is the student getting out of it if the instructor is micro-managing the situation?
Bumblebee
Commodore
I just got off the phone with a balloon pilot who does it professionally in the Napa Valley. He said that a balloon without fire/gas would come down similarly to a parachute...and he would rather have that emergency than one in which he lost his engine (SE Ops). It's a simple matter of physics...drop a balloon without air in it and it drops, fill up a balloon and tie it off and drop it and it comes down much more gently. He said 13 mph descent rate. Let's see 13mph of energy vs a minimum of 70mph at best glide...uh no brainer.
I'm going with the professional...
listen, I didn't know any better until this guy called me back to answer my question...but none of that matters, really in this discussion.
It's just this...is it a good idea to shut off a perfectly good single engine for demonstration?
I'm going to have to stick with no.
I'm going with the professional...
listen, I didn't know any better until this guy called me back to answer my question...but none of that matters, really in this discussion.
It's just this...is it a good idea to shut off a perfectly good single engine for demonstration?
I'm going to have to stick with no.
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NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
I'm really curious who taught him to shut off the motor. What syllabus exists out there that authorizes, let alone encourages, this? What FSDO would be OK with this? What owner is OK with you running down the battery while you're coasting in?
How's that battery by the way? Flaps are electric...oops. Gyros are vacuum powered....oops.
So you're doing something completely on your own with complete disregard to the POH and common sense.
OK.
How's that battery by the way? Flaps are electric...oops. Gyros are vacuum powered....oops.
So you're doing something completely on your own with complete disregard to the POH and common sense.
OK.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Oh great, this argument again
Actually, they are. I am amazed ho many CFIs don't understand that engines behave exactly the same regardless if there is one or two. The propeller will continue spinning, and therefore all systems will continue operating exactly as before. Oil pressure, alternator, magnetos, and the prop governor will continue to work exactly as before.
Actually, they are. I am amazed ho many CFIs don't understand that engines behave exactly the same regardless if there is one or two. The propeller will continue spinning, and therefore all systems will continue operating exactly as before. Oil pressure, alternator, magnetos, and the prop governor will continue to work exactly as before.
When teaching engine failures, my first point of briefing is that the Cessna is a perfectly good glider.
Flight training is a high risk environment. Yes, we all understand that pulling the mixture in flight is an added risk and it should only be undertaken in an environment that offsets this risk.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Exactly,
The only difference between a motorglider is that it can feather the prop and possibly surf on a thermal.
jwp_145
GhostRider in the Sky
You could ask for the engine to keep working!
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
I have done this in the past, and will do so in the future.
This training event is a major confidence builder for the student. Given the many shocked responses in this thread and other places, I believe that many pilots do not truly believe that they can actually glide a single engine airplane to a safe landing. However, once you have done it once for real, you will gain that confidence.
I take the same attitude toward spins. "Who needs to demonstrate a spin for a primary student? The PTS doesn't require it, and there is a risk that you could lose control." I demonstrate spins to all my students at least once. I don't care if they never see one again but I don't want the first spin they ever see to be at pattern altitude.
Now, of course I understand that this training scenario has the potential to go badly wrong. Needless to say I approach this scenario VERY carefully. I plan for it and try to mitigate those risks. I prefer to do this from several thousand feet above an uncontrolled airport with several open fields around. I make sure there is no traffic anywhere nearby. We must be assured of making the runway to continue below 800 AGL, which allows plenty of time to feed the mixture back in and restore power to the already spinning engine.
I don't judge another CFI who chooses not to go this route, but I find it to be very educational for my students.
Edit: One thing that is shown in many of these videos the I do NOT do is stopping the prop. I keep the prop spinning all the way to touchdown. This is more realistic to a true engine failure, and keeps the engine in a ready to restart condition. If the prop is still spinning, all you need to do is re introduce some mixture and it will start producing power again.
This training event is a major confidence builder for the student. Given the many shocked responses in this thread and other places, I believe that many pilots do not truly believe that they can actually glide a single engine airplane to a safe landing. However, once you have done it once for real, you will gain that confidence.
I take the same attitude toward spins. "Who needs to demonstrate a spin for a primary student? The PTS doesn't require it, and there is a risk that you could lose control." I demonstrate spins to all my students at least once. I don't care if they never see one again but I don't want the first spin they ever see to be at pattern altitude.
Now, of course I understand that this training scenario has the potential to go badly wrong. Needless to say I approach this scenario VERY carefully. I plan for it and try to mitigate those risks. I prefer to do this from several thousand feet above an uncontrolled airport with several open fields around. I make sure there is no traffic anywhere nearby. We must be assured of making the runway to continue below 800 AGL, which allows plenty of time to feed the mixture back in and restore power to the already spinning engine.
I don't judge another CFI who chooses not to go this route, but I find it to be very educational for my students.
Edit: One thing that is shown in many of these videos the I do NOT do is stopping the prop. I keep the prop spinning all the way to touchdown. This is more realistic to a true engine failure, and keeps the engine in a ready to restart condition. If the prop is still spinning, all you need to do is re introduce some mixture and it will start producing power again.
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