Video of forced landing in Australia

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I still don't understand how shutting an engine down in a twin can be perfectly ok but as soon as 'the' engine is shut down it becomes an emergency.

You can't do a go around on one engine in most twin trainers either, and I consider a relatively un-maneuverable single engine landing in a Seminole much more risky than a deadstick landing in a Skyhawk because of its higher speed and lack of options/maneuverability.

Did a go around in a PA-23-150 with simulated engine out. Does that count? What a check ride at an old grasscracked runway.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

really?

are you proficient in ME aircraft? Because to me it's not even comparable...and I can land a throttled back SE to Commercial standards...so no I'm not afraid of it, just can't believe you'd rather have no engine than one engine...I'm trying to imagine a scenario where I would prefer that I had to make a forced landing rather than a controlled single engine approach...I can't.

But OK...your ass in the seat, you make the call.

Aren't you flying a center thrust ME now? 8)

 

[rframe]

Are there seriously instructors who shut down the only engine during training? If your employer knew what you were doing, you'd be promptly fired. If the Feds knew what you were doing, you'd be promptly violated. Any questions why?

Uhhmmm how about no. But nice attempt at drama.

You'd think pilots would have a basic conceptual understanding of physics and logic. Guess not.

 

[mikecweb]

I actually enjoy this thread. Lots of information to put in the back pocket.
About teaching, well no but the professionalism of some on here for sure.

My favorite argument for this ridiculous practice is well look at what Bob Hoover did.

Only question I have for those that do this, at what point do you guys start following the rules?

 

[rframe]

Only question I have for those that do this, at what point do you guys start following the rules?

Which rule is that?

 

[mikecweb]

Which rule is that?

Lets see Normal Procedures section of the AFM, PTS, Insurance Company probably has something to say about it...

You know what I don't even care what you guys do. Shutting a engine down in a single "to build confidence" so ridiculous to me I don't even know why I jumped in here. Obviously you guys are just a different caliber of pilot then myself and my colleagues, career CFIs scare the crap out of me anyways...

 

[rframe]

Shutting a engine down in a single "to build confidence" so ridiculous to me I don't even know why I jumped in here.

OK

Obviously you guys are just a different caliber of pilot

I have yet to see a single person claim this has anything to do with having super skill and the only people who think this is about macho chest beating are people who are freaking out about it, building themselves a straw man because the simple facts dont support their position. In fact, the Bob Hoover comparison (that you brought up, not me) is funny because Bob said (to slightly paraphrase) "I dont think I have any special skill that anybody else doesn't have, I just have had the opportunity to understand the airplane and explore its capabilities, I've come to understand energy management"....hmmmm, food for thought.

I've got three young kids and a wife at home. I dont do things I consider unacceptably risky in airplanes, I am quite conservative, and I've got nobody to impress. I get that this freaks some people out, I think that's because its fear of the unknown and not based on any reasonable logic or understanding of how airplanes work. As I've pointed out many times, I dont care if you do it and if you aren't comfortable with it, then dont do it.

career CFIs scare the crap out of me anyways...

OK.

 

[mikecweb]

 

[Bumblebee]

Aren't you flying a center thrust ME now? 8)

yup...that has nothing to do with this discussion. Far and away, most of my time is flying non centerline thrust...and my argument stands. (with less than 1000 SE so that could taint my perspective)

 

[rframe]

lol, I will always love you though

 

[Bumblebee]

yeah I think this is a good discussion...I am going to get some guidance from the FSDO where I work and my DPE mentors here...maybe at the Races on Friday.

 

[Ajax]

Which rule is that?

91.13

Do you really think explaining that to a fed would go over very well?

Then again, 91.13 is their joker card they can pull whenever they like

 

[n57flyguy]

Interesting discussion for sure.

If, I was high enough and lost an engine, I would stop the prop, trim for best glide and hope for the best. That depends on multiple scenarios however.

For training purposes, I am not sure. Would I be nervous? No. Would I be nervous I don't have an out? Yes. The simple fact is the airplane does behave differently with a spinning prop vs. a non spinning prop. I guess just make sure it is vertical, assuming a two blade prop. It is another trick to have in the back pocket it seems. I rely on my abilities to fly the airplane in all circumstances that I allow.

Trying it would be fun but I would want a briefed scenario and have plenty of options. It would give perspective if it happens.

Here is another question though, if you slow the airplane to a stall or near a stall to stop the prop, how much glide (if any) would you loose during that phase of the scenario?

 

[Roger Roger]

If you were to do actual engine shutdowns with students, as long as the prop didn't stop getting engine power back would be as easy as pushing the mixture in.

 

[bLizZuE]

I've got three young kids and a wife at home. I dont do things I consider unacceptably risky in airplanes, I am quite conservative, and I've got nobody to impress. I get that this freaks some people out, I think that's because its fear of the unknown and not based on any reasonable logic or understanding of how airplanes work. As I've pointed out many times, I dont care if you do it and if you aren't comfortable with it, then dont do it.

At the end of the day, we can always agree to disagree, but this isn't something that is a matter of technique. You say that I don't understand how airplanes work because I choose to not put myself in a situation that could potentially require me to make an off airport landing unnecessarily. Please think that statement through. There are plenty of people here with 10 times the experience than me and they're telling you the same thing. Are we all so ignorant and stupid regarding how airplanes work?

There are plenty of ways to teach a student confidence in engine out scenarios that don't require this. The risk doesn't outweigh the reward.

Lastly, being conservative isn't an option in your job, it's a requirement. I use to tell my students that my goal is to retire from aviation not expire. It's awesome that you're confident in shutting engines down and landing the airplane like that- but it's a risk that you don't have to take. Especially with a student at the controls!

I just renewed my CFI and as much fun as that always is, one of the things that was so repetitive this time around was how many accidents occurred with an instructor on board. A common theme was also "well I've done this 100 times before and I was ok" - which is a completely unacceptable attitude. I think you've done this a lot and you've developed a confidence with it and it has grown into a "well it's always worked out."

I'm not debating or arguing with you just because I think I'm right and I think you're wrong, I truly believe what you're doing is unsafe and negligent and will one day lead to very unfavorable consequences. I'd much rather drink a beer and talk about all the crazy crap students try to do and how big your kids are getting.

 

[Muff3n]

@rframe I guess I sort of have mixed emotions about what you are saying in regards to ACTUALLY shutting the engine off mid flight and gliding to a landing point. I do understand that this would be a great way for somebody that has never done it before to build experience, but I just do not think that it is worth the risk of doing. I will definitely give it to you and say that students that have actually shut one down and glided to an airport a few times would be MUCH more comfortable in a situation where they unexpectedly lost their engine, but shutting one down to practice the emergency opens you up to a lot of possible negative consequences. I believe I read you talking a little earlier about how if things really start looking bad you can just restart the engine, and I definitely understand how that is an option. The only thing is.... sometimes stuff doesn't work when it is MOST needed. That one time out of all of those "practice" engine outs that you needed to bump the starter and get some power back under you it would quit. Well, it may have worked for you in the past, but with the fortune that I seem to have I sure wouldn't count on it!

Don't get me wrong man, I am not sitting here calling you a bad pilot or anything like that, I just think that it is a risky thing to do. I know that this is a weird analogy, but one I just thought of would be like in order to "practice" for survival in war, you go into an active battlefield where you have a chance at getting killed while you are "practicing" for the same thing that you hope doesn't get you killed one day.

Just my .02, I know that this is definitely a topic some people have mixed opinions on. It definitely seems like most people on this board do not agree with the practice, and neither do I. I can definitely tell a correlation between people that did this type of engine out practice while doing their primary training and the fact that those people usually thoroughly believe in the practice. To each his own, I just know you would have to do some serious explaining to the feds if you happened to have an accident while doing this. I typically try to stick to doing flying activities that if something went wrong I think I could justify it to the feds. That way I can still hopefully fly another day.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

In an actual scenario, since it's been a while for me.... Does the emergency procedure for a fixed pitch prop / piston engine combo call for showing to a speed at which the windmilling will stop so that you can be "slightly" more aerodynamic?

I seem to recall that at no point in a single with an engine failure were you to go below best glide speed. Or above. Trade airspeed for altitude to reduce to best glide, select best landing site, check carb heat or aux pump on. Then the emergency procedures checklist.

I would imagine that getting the prop stopped for efficiency isn't on the radar, and in fact would hurt your chances of restarting as you are working on it on the way down.

 

[dasleben]

You'd think pilots would have a basic conceptual understanding of physics and logic. Guess not.

Great example of Huggies School of Networking. Keep it up.

 

[rframe]

Great example of Huggies School of Networking. Keep it up.

You've had multiple A&P mechanics and glider pilots explaining why this works yet the people who've never done it are all upset and feel their advice is golden....sometimes a little sarcasm is in order.

 

[dasleben]

You've had multiple A&P mechanics and glider pilots explaining why this works yet the people who've never done it are all upset and feel their advice is golden....sometimes a little sarcasm is in order.

1. We're all very aware of how a reciprocating engine works; A&P explanation is not required.
2. You're not flying a glider.

You will be fired, violated, or worse, if you keep it up.