Speed Adjustments

[cime_sp]

Here is a question I have that seems to always get a different answer depending on who I ask. The RNAV arrivals into ATL have mandatory speeds attached to them at certain fixes which you are expected to comply with unless modified by ATC. The problem, is that certain ATC continue to give ambigious clearances.

I keep getting told "reduce speed to 280 kts".....to me this is very different than "maintain 280 kts". Are they expecting me to slow to 280 kts for now and then cross the fix at the charted 250 or 210 kts????....or do the want me to fly 280 kts until told otherwise? It seems some controllers expect you to slow at the fix and some don't.

I'm also apparently not the only one because you can pretty consistently keep hearing pilots asking "do you want the spped at #####?", which seems to annoy the controller more. Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no, sometimes "I'll call your speed reduction". It seems one side of the equation doesn't know what the other side wants all the time. Very confusing

 

[Fox Xray]

I keep getting told "reduce speed to 280 kts".....to me this is very different than "maintain 280 kts". Are they expecting me to slow to 280 kts for now and then cross the fix at the charted 250 or 210 kts????

Yes

I don't work in ATL but I work similar approaches. If you're on the arrival and 30 miles from XYZ (which has a published crossing speed of 250 knots) and you're instructed to reduce speed to 280 knots that means slow to 280, then cross XYZ @ 250 knots.

I give clearances like that all day ...

 

[surreal1221]

I'm also apparently not the only one because you can pretty consistently keep hearing pilots asking "do you want the spped at #####?", which seems to annoy the controller more. Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no, sometimes "I'll call your speed reduction". It seems one side of the equation doesn't know what the other side wants all the time. Very confusing

We always ask. Simple as that.

Until A80, or all of the companies operating out of Atlanta get with the game plan and actually fly the RNAV arrivals as they are designed (profile arrivals), we will continue to ask if they want us to slow to 210 at the designated fixes. Now as far as altitudes, we don't bother because our company documents indicate that A80 does not want us descending unless we are instructed to.

 

[Fox Xray]

We always ask. Simple as that.

If you're not sure that is great advice...

 

[chrisatc]

We always ask. Simple as that.

Until A80, or all of the companies operating out of Atlanta get with the game plan and actually fly the RNAV arrivals as they are designed (profile arrivals), we will continue to ask if they want us to slow to 210 at the designated fixes. Now as far as altitudes, we don't bother because our company documents indicate that A80 does not want us descending unless we are instructed to.

Bingo! If you have a question, ask it. If we get annoyed, that is our problem. We should be telling you to cancel all speed restrictions if we do not want you slowing via the STAR. As for the descend via clearances, do not expect their return any time soon. The few weeks they were in effect, we had dozens of deviations with aircraft descending into departures on the long side of the arrival.

Just my personal view, these programmed arrivals work very well in a sterile environment with a limited number of variables. But we work in the real world with weather, winds, and a whole host of other variable that cannot be duplicated in a lab. IOW, automation has its limitations. Be very careful about depending too much on automation.

Chris

 

[NJA_Capt]

The few weeks they were in effect, we had dozens of deviations with aircraft descending into departures on the long side of the arrival.

LAX does descend vias 24/7 and works fine. LAX also has something in the way that ATL doesn't have to work around.......Large MOUNTAINS.

Here is the problem as I see it. There are too many ATC/ARTCC facilities using there own procedures and interpretations. There are also too many "agreements" with other facilities. Every facility wants things done a different way. There is very little standardization between facilities. One facility wants low altitude arrivals at max speed (NY ARTCC) and others can't seem to fathom a traffic pattern below 10,000 and more than 180 kts (IAH,MCO, CLT). With so many cities using different procedures, there is no way pilots will keep up with them all.

The industry could saves millions of gallons of fuel if they could stay at altitude until the optimal decent point, not :30 to :40 minutes early as they do now. Unfortunately the way it is now, we descend :40 minutes early only to end up at 10,000 msl on downwind for a 20 mile VFR final. :banghead:

They could also relieve some of the departure congestion if they would allow high performance aircraft to climb like a high performance aircraft...not like DC3s (No offense to the DC3). Many modern jets could be at FL410 before being handed off to ARTCC (<:15 mins). Currently they are delayed :30-:45 mins to get to cruise altitude.

Most of these procedures were developed around airplanes that couldn't get to the high FL30s, much less FL40/50s. Flying modern jets at King Air altitudes (and speeds) is extremely wasteful and inefficient.

My regards to all the controllers, I know this is above there pay grade. Thanks for all the help.

 

[zmiller4]

LAX does descend vias 24/7 and works fine. LAX also has something in the way that ATL doesn't have to work around.......Large MOUNTAINS.

LAX's arrivals work out beautifully.

SLC, on the other hand, is wretched. The arrivals are built for "descend via" clearances, but I don't think I've ever flown a complete one that way. Seems like they're always varying the speeds, altitudes, etc--there's less standardization now than there was before that. The departures, though, are absolutely terrible. They've got "climb via" departures that have a mix of "at or below" or "at or above" altitudes, a mix of speed restrictions, and controllers that don't really seem to be real clear on what's going on. *That* place is a freaking express lane to ASAPtown.

 

[chrisatc]

LAX does descend vias 24/7 and works fine. LAX also has something in the way that ATL doesn't have to work around.......Large MOUNTAINS. No argument here.

Here is the problem as I see it. There are too many ATC/ARTCC facilities using there own procedures and interpretations. There are also too many "agreements" with other facilities. Every facility wants things done a different way. There is very little standardization between facilities. One facility wants low altitude arrivals at max speed (NY ARTCC) and others can't seem to fathom a traffic pattern below 10,000 and more than 180 kts (IAH,MCO, CLT). With so many cities using different procedures, there is no way pilots will keep up with them all. Again, some valid observations.

The industry could saves millions of gallons of fuel if they could stay at altitude until the optimal decent point, not :30 to :40 minutes early as they do now. Unfortunately the way it is now, we descend :40 minutes early only to end up at 10,000 msl on downwind for a 20 mile VFR final. :banghead:
This will only work if the everyone agrees to a strictly dictated schedule that allows for the appropriate separation throughout the flight from everyone else. No basing the schedule on what the customer wants.

They could also relieve some of the departure congestion if they would allow high performance aircraft to climb like a high performance aircraft...not like DC3s (No offense to the DC3). Many modern jets could be at FL410 before being handed off to ARTCC (<:15 mins). Currently they are delayed :30-:45 mins to get to cruise altitude. See above.

Most of these procedures were developed around airplanes that couldn't get to the high FL30s, much less FL40/50s. Flying modern jets at King Air altitudes (and speeds) is extremely wasteful and inefficient. Agreed.

My regards to all the controllers, I know this is above there pay grade. Thanks for all the help.

If you have the opportunity, stop in for a tour of our facility. It will be enlightening. Likewise, all of us controllers are longing for the FAM program to come back. We need to see things from your side of the radio to maintain an appropriate perspective. This is becoming more important as the new generations of controllers enters the work force.

 

[Fox Xray]

Here is the problem as I see it. There are too many ATC/ARTCC facilities using there own procedures and interpretations. There are also too many "agreements" with other facilities. Every facility wants things done a different way. There is very little standardization between facilities. One facility wants low altitude arrivals at max speed (NY ARTCC) and others can't seem to fathom a traffic pattern below 10,000 and more than 180 kts (IAH,MCO, CLT). With so many cities using different procedures, there is no way pilots will keep up with them all.

I wish I could take you with me to some of the meetings I attend... I have been preaching this very same issue since I became a NATCA rep some years back. They tell me the pilots don't care... obviously they do. Each facility is like it's own country, it's really a bad system. Sadly I do not seeing anything changing anytime soon.

 

[surreal1221]

What is unfortunate, is that we do care. . .and we know the frontline controllers care . . . but yet the ignorance that is FAA Management fails to realize that we need the standardization for a reason.

 

[braunpilot]

All of you are worried about getting up to altitude (flight levels) as quick as possible. I am a 135 freight driver and spend all of my time below 10,000. I know that I have a prob with being too slow during certain situations and too fast when on final. I fly a Baron (BE58) between a CPS and MEM everyday. During the mornings MEM hates me and sticks me at 3,000 feet or below 30 miles from MEM and during the afternoon STL Approach drops me to 5,000 feet 35 miles from CPS. while most of you are like so what to a piston driver for the most part these same rules apply to ALL AIRCRAFT going into CPS and I feel like such a second class citizen going into MEM. I get told to keep my speed up going into MEM 170 KIAS or greater until a 5 mile final and than if I am flowing a CRJ I get told just before the turn to final that I have to slow for spacing to 150 KIAS. Then on the trip home I get held at 3,000 unless it's a good controller, or great traffic conditions, until 50 north of MEM. I know that I am usually departing into the arrival corridor but I cannot help how slow I am in a Baron. Seriously climbing out at 500 fpm just to get the fastest possible airspeed. Is there anything I should know about why I keep getting screwed up the... I want to help ATC because I know their/your job is hard enough without throwing a prop in the mix with jets/turboprops but I am getting paid to fly when I get the cargo. I would rather be flying the jets just as much as they wish that I was. Anything that I can do?

 

[chrisatc]

All of you are worried about getting up to altitude (flight levels) as quick as possible. I am a 135 freight driver and spend all of my time below 10,000. I know that I have a prob with being too slow during certain situations and too fast when on final. I fly a Baron (BE58) between a CPS and MEM everyday. During the mornings MEM hates me and sticks me at 3,000 feet or below 30 miles from MEM and during the afternoon STL Approach drops me to 5,000 feet 35 miles from CPS. while most of you are like so what to a piston driver for the most part these same rules apply to ALL AIRCRAFT going into CPS and I feel like such a second class citizen going into MEM. I get told to keep my speed up going into MEM 170 KIAS or greater until a 5 mile final and than if I am flowing a CRJ I get told just before the turn to final that I have to slow for spacing to 150 KIAS. Then on the trip home I get held at 3,000 unless it's a good controller, or great traffic conditions, until 50 north of MEM. I know that I am usually departing into the arrival corridor but I cannot help how slow I am in a Baron. Seriously climbing out at 500 fpm just to get the fastest possible airspeed. Is there anything I should know about why I keep getting screwed up the... I want to help ATC because I know their/your job is hard enough without throwing a prop in the mix with jets/turboprops but I am getting paid to fly when I get the cargo. I would rather be flying the jets just as much as they wish that I was. Anything that I can do?

There really isn't anything you can do. In busy terminal areas the procedures segregate aircraft base on performance. It is the only safe thing to do.

 

[Bama]

Here is a question I have that seems to always get a different answer depending on who I ask. The RNAV arrivals into ATL have mandatory speeds attached to them at certain fixes which you are expected to comply with unless modified by ATC. The problem, is that certain ATC continue to give ambigious clearances.

I keep getting told "reduce speed to 280 kts".....to me this is very different than "maintain 280 kts". Are they expecting me to slow to 280 kts for now and then cross the fix at the charted 250 or 210 kts????....or do the want me to fly 280 kts until told otherwise? It seems some controllers expect you to slow at the fix and some don't.

I'm also apparently not the only one because you can pretty consistently keep hearing pilots asking "do you want the spped at #####?", which seems to annoy the controller more. Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no, sometimes "I'll call your speed reduction". It seems one side of the equation doesn't know what the other side wants all the time. Very confusing

ATIS says abide by the speeds..

Plan on doing that until told otherwise.



Or just haul ass until they yell at ya

 

[braunpilot]

There really isn't anything you can do. In busy terminal areas the procedures segregate aircraft base on performance. It is the only safe thing to do.

So curse the FAA and wish I was flying a jet....oh well......someday

 

[NJA_Capt]

There really isn't anything you can do. In busy terminal areas the procedures segregate aircraft base on performance. It is the only safe thing to do.

I don't think experience shows that to be true. From my observations, traffic is based on the lowest common denominator. Planes that can climb 6000 fpm are step climbed behind planes doing 500 fpm. In cruise, planes capable of .87+ are made to slow to .78. On arrivals, planes capable of 350+ IAS are made to slow to 250 KIAS...even in the FL20s & FL30s. In the terminal areas of places like CLE, IAH, MCO you are slowed to 170 KIAS. For the love of humanity, why do jet aircraft have to fly 20nm finals at a 170 KIAS when it is CAVU?!?!

I'd also like to know what happened to the rule: "turn the slowest aircraft to accommodate spacing?" In the real world, that very rarely happens. I think the real world rule is "Turn the corp jet regardless of speed."

So curse the FAA and wish I was flying a jet....oh well......someday

I hate to be the bearer of bad news......but being in a jet doesn't help. Until the airlines stop flying around like the Driver's Ed car on the interstate it won't get better.

 

[braunpilot]

I don't think experience shows that to be true. From my observations, traffic is based on the lowest common denominator. Planes that can climb 6000 fpm are step climbed behind planes doing 500 fpm. In cruise, planes capable of .87+ are made to slow to .78. On arrivals, planes capable of 350+ IAS are made to slow to 250 KIAS...even in the FL20s & FL30s. In the terminal areas of places like CLE, IAH, MCO you are slowed to 170 KIAS. For the love of humanity, why do jet aircraft have to fly 20nm finals at a 170 KIAS when it is CAVU?!?!

Because of too many airline accidents they need the long final to find the airport! ha, j/k

I hate to be the bearer of bad news......but being in a jet doesn't help. Until the airlines stop flying around like the Driver's Ed car on the interstate it won't get better.

Could be worse.....You could have a huge banner painted on the side of the aircraft!

NJA_Capt, how often are you flying into and out of airline airports? Just curious.

 

[NJA_Capt]

NJA_Capt, how often are you flying into and out of airline airports?

The Ce750s do a fair amount into the large airports, but generally we are going to the satellite airports. Naturally we are using the same arrivals as the primary airport. I see more than I care of IAD, LAX, MDW, SFO, SAN and BOS. With the occasional MIA, JFK, LGA, SLC, LAS, PHX and ATL. If it has a big "B" next to it on the chart.....I'm there (or under it).

Funny. When it's IMC, we can circle at mins within 2.3 nm. But when it's Clear and 10 we need 20nm straight finals.
That sounds like something the Government would come up with.

 

[chrisatc]

I don't think experience shows that to be true. From my observations, traffic is based on the lowest common denominator. Planes that can climb 6000 fpm are step climbed behind planes doing 500 fpm. In cruise, planes capable of .87+ are made to slow to .78. On arrivals, planes capable of 350+ IAS are made to slow to 250 KIAS...even in the FL20s & FL30s. In the terminal areas of places like CLE, IAH, MCO you are slowed to 170 KIAS. For the love of humanity, why do jet aircraft have to fly 20nm finals at a 170 KIAS when it is CAVU?!?!

I'd also like to know what happened to the rule: "turn the slowest aircraft to accommodate spacing?" In the real world, that very rarely happens. I think the real world rule is "Turn the corp jet regardless of speed."


I hate to be the bearer of bad news......but being in a jet doesn't help. Until the airlines stop flying around like the Driver's Ed car on the interstate it won't get better.

I can only speak for ATL but I think the principle applies to every busy airport. You cannot fly full throttle to the runway unless you are number one for the runway because when the aircraft in front of you slows you are going to catch him if you do not slow also. We consistently get aircraft from center, 5 miles in trail, doing 300 kts plus across the ground. When the lead aircraft in the group slows to land, every aircraft behind him must start to slow in order to maintain separation. It is a domino effect.

You really should spend a day at a busy terminal facility and watch what happens. I think it would answer a lot of the questions as to why certain things occur. You will probably not agree with all of it but you will not be as irritated with the system as you seem to be now.

Chris

 

[chrisatc]

The Ce750s do a fair amount into the large airports, but generally we are going to the satellite airports. Naturally we are using the same arrivals as the primary airport. I see more than I care of IAD, LAX, MDW, SFO, SAN and BOS. With the occasional MIA, JFK, LGA, SLC, LAS, PHX and ATL. If it has a big "B" next to it on the chart.....I'm there (or under it). In ATL all satellite arrivals use separate arrivals from Hartsfield traffic.

Funny. When it's IMC, we can circle at mins within 2.3 nm. But when it's Clear and 10 we need 20nm straight finals. You may go around at ATL but you may never circle
That sounds like something the Government would come up with.

Some of the things they are coming up now would still amaze you. After twenty years they still continue to surprise me :banghead:

 

[RetiredATLATC]

On the "long side" inbound to ATL (IE the arrival side that will be the downwind) my standard phraseology is "Maintain xxx knots until I advise you otherwise". That seems to alleviate confusion. 'Course there's always one or two that say, "do you want me to slow at XYZ?" then I will restate, in the nicest and cheeriest voice, because those of you that know me on here know I'm a pro through-and-through,
"UNTIL ADVISED". :banghead:

Of course inbound to FTY/RYY/PDK/LZU I also want you to go faster than 200kts below the Bravo so you can be numebr one to the airport.