Seniority Question

AA

New Member
I know the basics about seniority, i.e. better pay, bigger planes, better schedule pick, etc. But say you are a captain on an MD-80, and you want to move up to 757/767 class. Do you become a first officer on the 757/767? I guess that it just seems wierd for a captain to become a first officer.
 

flyguy

Well-Known Member
Generally you'd stay an FO until you upgrade to captain, so you'd be an MD-8O FO, then become a 757/767 FO, then upgrade to captain on the MD-80, (this is assuming the airline only had these 3 aircraft) Some pilots wait to upgrade to captain until then have enough senority to hold a spot on the larger aircraft. I have heard that it is possible at some airlines to downgrade to FO on a larger aircraft, but in general once you get the upgrade to captain you will stay a captain.
 

RPM

Well-Known Member
I understand how the upgrades work, it just seems odd to me.

For example: Your a B1900 Capt., then upgrade to RJ Capt., when you change aircraft the F/O's probably have way more experiance in that aircraft than you, just doesn't seem right to me that you would be in command.
 

I_Money

Moderator
^^ Not quite sure I understand what he is talking about however it really depends on if you are senior enough to hold that aircraft as a captain.
 

I_Money

Moderator
[ QUOTE ]
For example: Your a B1900 Capt., then upgrade to RJ Capt., when you change aircraft the F/O's probably have way more experiance in that aircraft than you, just doesn't seem right to me that you would be in command.


[/ QUOTE ]

But the captain has many more 1000 of hours flying -
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
I understand how the upgrades work, it just seems odd to me.

For example: Your a B1900 Capt., then upgrade to RJ Capt., when you change aircraft the F/O's probably have way more experiance in that aircraft than you, just doesn't seem right to me that you would be in command.


[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, maybe not.
If you have 7 years seniority and the B1900 FO has 5, and you both bid the RJ Capt position, you get it. But if the B1900 FO has 10 years, then maybe he gets the Capt position and you bid into an RJ FO position.
All based on seniority and the scenarios can get really complicated with hundreds of pilots and lots of types of planes....
 

RPM

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
But the captain has many more 1000 of hours flying

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that, and I understand he would have the command exp also, it's just that he would be inexperianced in that particular aircraft, I dunno, maybe it's all quite similar at that level?
 

flyguy

Well-Known Member
When you have thousands of hours in large turbine aircraft, its not very difficult to transition from one to the next. Both pilots will be perfectly qualified to fly the aircraft. The difference between captain and FO is not in flying ability, but in decision making. The more experienced pilot will have better judgement. That is why the most senior pilots are the captains.
 

RPM

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
When you have thousands of hours in large turbine aircraft, its not very difficult to transition from one to the next. Both pilots will be perfectly qualified to fly the aircraft. The difference between captain and FO is not in flying ability, but in decision making. The more experienced pilot will have better judgement. That is why the most senior pilots are the captains.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks flyguy, I get it now, "decision making" ability
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Not very difficult...

"When you have thousands of hours in large turbine aircraft, its not very difficult to transition from one to the next."

Uh huh...so you're telling me my upcoming training program on the 757 is "not very difficult"...I'll try to remember that...

Any airline training program that one takes seriously is gonna be difficult...and if you don't take it seriously, you probably aren't going to pass.
 

flyguy

Well-Known Member
Re: Not very difficult...

[ QUOTE ]

Uh huh...so you're telling me my upcoming training program on the 757 is "not very difficult"...I'll try to remember that...


[/ QUOTE ]

Its gonna be a helluva lot easier for you than it would be for me. I meant in the grand scheme of things. Its easier to transition from one aircraft to the next when you're talking about an airline pilot who has experience in airliners. The point I was trying to make is that once both the captain and FO have been through the difficult training program, the captain is at least as qualified to fly the aircraft as the FO, even though the FO might have logged more time in that make & model.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Re: Not very difficult...

I agree with FlyGuy. The transition from one aircraft to another is not as difficult as walking in off the street and learning everything from scratch.

DE727 - you're going from boeing to boeing (hey that rhymes. I must be a poet but I am not aware of the fact.)

I think you'll see a lot of system commonality. From my brief exposure to both aircraft (very brief, did not finish training in either one) the big difference is that instead of 3 or 4 of everything, there are going to be 2 or 3 (don't forget the APU, right?)

You'll love the 75! Everybody does. Supposed to be one of the greatest aircraft to fly ever. Shame they discontinued it.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: Not very difficult...

A couple of things.

Seniority is seniority is seniority. A lot of guys went from 727 flight engineer to 737 captain at both United and Delta six or so years ago.

Transitioning from Beech 1900 captain to 727 flight engineer kicked my butt because being an FE was nothing like flying a turboprop. Different procedures and you literally had to have the "Geordie La Forge" knowledge of the aircraft systems. For example, if you need to download 4 AMPS of power from the electrical system, you're supposed to know off the bat which systems you can take offline (turn off) to reduce electrical draw. And do it fast too!


Transitioning from the 727 FE to 737 FO was a piece of cake. I knew jet aircraft systems already and Boeing builds pretty rock solid, easy to understand equipment.

Transitioning from the 737 FO to MD-88 FO was a pain in the butt. Primarily because there is nothing whatsoever common between McDonald Douglas aircraft and Boeing aircraft. Additionally, if the Boeing autopilot spoke "English", the McDonald Douglas autopilot speaks "Drunken UK Cockney" -- you can sort of understand it a little, but you're never quite sure what it's saying.

A good example:

Boeing: "Walk down three blocks, turn left where you see the dump truck and you've arrived"

McDonald Douglas: "OH yes, verr'well, awright...two aves down, turn'leff by the tipper lorry, and bob's yer uncle. Fo'e quid!"
 

cointyro

New Member
Re: Not very difficult...

Out of curiosity Doug, why did you switch from a 737 FO to a MD-80 FO? Closer base to home?
 

frog_flyer

FredFlyer
Re: Not very difficult...

cointyro said:
Out of curiosity Doug, why did you switch from a 737 FO to a MD-80 FO? Closer base to home?
This is my choice for my weekly bump!




In relation to the original post, I hear that AA has a 2 year "up or out" rule. You can sit as an uber senior FO for 2 years, but if you dont upgrade after that you're gone unless you're pals with your CP.

Alot of guys just like to sit around where they are senior. I know an AA guy that could easily hold 777FO but sits around on the 737 cause he likes the out and backs to SNA and i think? LGA? pretty cushy says he. He was hired a year behind DFW's most junior captain, so god knows when he'll get to upgrade. Heck, whats another year or two after 15?
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: Not very difficult...

cointyro said:
Out of curiosity Doug, why did you switch from a 737 FO to a MD-80 FO? Closer base to home?
I was a 737 FO in MCO, moved to PHX and flew the MD-88 in DFW. At the time, it was the best seniority for me closest to home back in 2000.

I can hold any FO seat, except the 777, systemwide, and a couple hundred numbers away from mad dog captain, but I'm kind of keeping my powder dry for a 767ER opening.

Some folks chase money, some folks chase airplanes, me, I just chase quality of life.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
RPM said:
I understand how the upgrades work, it just seems odd to me.

For example: Your a B1900 Capt., then upgrade to RJ Capt., when you change aircraft the F/O's probably have way more experiance in that aircraft than you, just doesn't seem right to me that you would be in command.
A lot of captains I fly with have far less MD-88/90 experience than I have.

It's just a fact of the business! :)

"No...wait. no no no! Don't execute that! Aww cripes, I'll fix it. Damned former turbofluff guys!"
 

CFIscare

Well-Known Member
flyguy said:
but in general once you get the upgrade to captain you will stay a captain.
But in the case of USAir, once you get the upgrade to captain, you could be furloughed...
 

Persian_Pilot

Well-Known Member
I've been always confused by the Seniority system.

So here's my undrestanding.

Let's say that you're a Senior FO ( 7 years ) and you upgrade to CAP, Then you loose your Seniority and you're gonna have to build it up again, right?
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
Persian_Pilot said:
I've been always confused by the Seniority system.

So here's my undrestanding.

Let's say that you're a Senior FO ( 7 years ) and you upgrade to CAP, Then you loose your Seniority and you're gonna have to build it up again, right?
Nope....If you are a 7yr FO on md88 and the least senior Captain bid open on the 737 is 5 yr's, you can bid the Captain opening and still have 7yrs seniority. If you stay with the same company, your seniority never decreases. What will increase or decrease is the amount of said seniority that will be required to hold any given bid, be it Captain/F/O on any aircraft.

before any of you late night drunkards reply:

p.s. the numbers above were for demonstration purpose only.
 
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