PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
There are a bunch of guys that are "standard" but are jerks about every nitpicky detail. That's no fun for anybody.
Right Seat Captains
- Thread starter crazyjaydawg
- Start date
There are a bunch of guys that are "standard" but are jerks about every nitpicky detail. That's no fun for anybody.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
I've had that too.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
"No comment."
Old Dominion Flyer
Well-Known Member
PhilosopherPilot said:
That sounds good, but I'm not entirely sure about what you mean. Here's an example that comes to mind, please tell me if I'm close.
Captain: If I don't call for the Engine Start Check when the door closes, it's because I've forgotten. You know when to run it, so go ahead.
Me: Understood.
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
Or the after landing. Lots of guys don't call for that. I give them ample opportunity to do so, but if we're pretty far across the line and it appears he's not going to, I just go ahead and do it. On some checklists it makes sense to wait, in which case I'll ask. But there's no reason to be taxiing to the ramp with the flaps out, radar on, and strobes flashing.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
More like, "Hey, if I forget to call for something, remind me and I'll call for it." Once you open the door to running things "uncalled" it can lead to bad outcomes. Maybe I didn't forget, and I was waiting for something specific?
If you prompt me and I did forget, I'll call for it. If I didn't forget, it will prompt me to share my thought process (that I should've already shared).
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
Maybe I've been extrordinarily lucky, but in all the years of being a captain I have never had a FO that has crossed the line with his or her duties. I appreciate help and support and don't try to "own" anything that needs to be done. Work together, be professional and communicate openly. It works every time.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
It happens, just like captains who don't do their duties exist.
ClearedForOption
Psychiatric Help 5¢
Yeah... the pilots that say it's your leg but then treat you as a voice activated FCU. Lots of fun. It still annoys me that I have to keep a PITA list with people's off the wall quirks. (i.e. Ex-US Air procedures, EX-Emery procedures, I fill out my Class II nav log like this and you must too... et. al.)
The three greatest words in the English language: "You have control."
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Yup. Ain't nobody got time for that.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
So many minds will be BLOWN when ASA's new checklist/procedures come out then.
All this "asking" to run checklists that are to be completed stuff won't matter.
GET IT DONE BETWEEN POINT A and POINT B, prior to POINT B.
Mumble Mumble Mumble.
This stuff ain't THAT difficult ladies.
All this "asking" to run checklists that are to be completed stuff won't matter.
GET IT DONE BETWEEN POINT A and POINT B, prior to POINT B.
Mumble Mumble Mumble.
This stuff ain't THAT difficult ladies.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Well... Shall I clean 'er up?
"Crap, sorry about that. Lights set, after landing check!"
No worries man!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
One of my favorite parts of Logten Pro is that it lets you keep notes on the people you fly with in addition to just the standard info about the flights. Makes it really easy to mark a guy "DO NOT FLY WITH" so I know not to pick up a trip or trade into a trip if I see a certain name on it. When there's many hundreds (or thousands) of pilots, it's impossible to remember all of the pains in the ass by memory.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
My frustration is more with new or weaker captains that just won't be captains. Don't push until all the non-revs are on and don't let someone else tell you as a captain how it's going to be. " By the way captain, we're closing the door 10 early tonight." Captain: Why is that?" Because ops said so, ready to close? Captain: "we are still waiting on bottled water, have six empty seats and we need the fuel slip." You're not getting the water, the non-revs aren't getting on and I'll hand the fuel slip through the window. Ready to close?"
You can be a good captain without being a tool, but make sure that it's clearly understood that you aren't looking for advice or to be told how it's going to be, especially by people who don't have a clue themselves. Decide what needs doing and then get people focused and working on what you need. This is not a negotiation, get them moving.
All you young guys will be captains soon. Learn from the good ones and don't repeat the asinine things the bad ones do.
A gate agent or supervisor who is used to bullying captains and crews to get what they want are surprised at times when I calmly and respectfully look in their eyes and smile, then say "ladies, thats's not what's going to happen." A little huffing and puffing follows shortly by authority flexing and then threatening to place the the delay-code on you. You just smile and say: "the sooner you get what I need done, the faster we can go."
Then, they finally get busy making what needs to happen, happen. I've never been called by a Chief for doing the right thing - Ever.
Don't be a dick, but be firm and respectful. They will learn to do the right thing if they're asked consistently enough.
I'm still pissed after 15 years that a captain denied boarding to a FA's buddy pass rider (80 year old aunt) because we would be 60 pounds over our T/O weight. She was the last non-rev left and ended up sitting in the airport all night waiting for a morning flight the next day. We had many ways to fix it, but he was the captain, and that was that. I learned a lot about not what to do that night when I upgraded to captain.
By the way, he'll never be in my jump seat either because I enjoy extracting revenge, it's just my style.
You can be a good captain without being a tool, but make sure that it's clearly understood that you aren't looking for advice or to be told how it's going to be, especially by people who don't have a clue themselves. Decide what needs doing and then get people focused and working on what you need. This is not a negotiation, get them moving.
All you young guys will be captains soon. Learn from the good ones and don't repeat the asinine things the bad ones do.
A gate agent or supervisor who is used to bullying captains and crews to get what they want are surprised at times when I calmly and respectfully look in their eyes and smile, then say "ladies, thats's not what's going to happen." A little huffing and puffing follows shortly by authority flexing and then threatening to place the the delay-code on you. You just smile and say: "the sooner you get what I need done, the faster we can go."
Then, they finally get busy making what needs to happen, happen. I've never been called by a Chief for doing the right thing - Ever.
Don't be a dick, but be firm and respectful. They will learn to do the right thing if they're asked consistently enough.
I'm still pissed after 15 years that a captain denied boarding to a FA's buddy pass rider (80 year old aunt) because we would be 60 pounds over our T/O weight. She was the last non-rev left and ended up sitting in the airport all night waiting for a morning flight the next day. We had many ways to fix it, but he was the captain, and that was that. I learned a lot about not what to do that night when I upgraded to captain.
By the way, he'll never be in my jump seat either because I enjoy extracting revenge, it's just my style.
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
This.
The captains I dislike flying with the most are the ones who aren't willing to take responsibility and get things done.
Company wants to put a BS MEL on the plane that doesn't actually address the problem? "Ok, that's fine." Not OK.
We are holding and I'm the one who has to calculate bingo fuel because "nah, we'll be ok."
When I, as the FO have to be the one to raise the BS flag, we have a problem.
A little leadership goes a long way and creates an environment where the entire crew not only is willing to perform, but WANTS to help out.
Old Dominion Flyer
Well-Known Member
I recently had a trip with a new FA. She remarked to me, in front of the CA, "I feel like I have two Captains in this trip, you're really helpful". I was mortified. Then the CA chimed in, "That's actually what we want. FO's will be Captains one day and they need practice thinking like one." I felt a little better at that point. However, I'm here to help. I'll acquire any info you need and provide any support necessary, but there's a chain of command and the occupant of the left seat is still one link ahead of me.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I feel ya. Couple captains, who are also current references on apps, have said "I can tell you were a captain prior to this." I was similarly mortified and my eyes went grew large as saucers. However it wasn't as bad as I first thought after exploring the feedback. Doing things like "hey I'll see whats going on with the paperwork" 15-20 prior, and while taxing the captains trying to do 3 things at once I will say "I'll get the PA for ya," and solving passenger problems with gate agents and FA's so the CA can keep talking to DX or MX or whatever. That sort of stuff was effortless for me because it was second nature, and apparently I did it in such a way it didn't intrude.
When I was a young FO, and I'm sure @Seggy (and another poor CA who told me one day, "I can't tell what's worse, a new 250hr FO or a FO about to upgrade.") can attest, I did a lot of right seat captain because I was worried about the upgrade and I really wanted to get into the head of a captain as much as possible. That turned into lots of feedback for the poor bastard I was flying with and none of it was helpful. The problem with 2000 hours and energetic, is that you can step on a captains toes easily. After being a CA for 2.5 years and stepping back to the right seat, I learned what a good FO is, a right seat CA. I still needed reinforcement and mentoring from CA's to make sure I was doing what was helpful and not overbearing, but picking up slack is so much easier when you know exactly what the guy next to you needs. That means you're going to make some decisions on your own.
The difference was experience. Except for a few diamonds in the rough, a good FO is a former CA (not a downgrade). Now I'll admit, since about Dec of last year in the -200 I was about to hang myself and my work ethic showed. If it didn't it was only because I went through the motions well. In fact I don't know if I ever fit in on the -200 at Endeavor (the pinnacle side) but it's impossible to know because moral got worse every trip- a statement reeking of hyperbole, but it's not an exeraggeration. The Pinnacle guys weren't bad guys, but they had PTSD (Post Trenery Stress Disorder) and it kills everyone's buzz.
A right seat CA (good type) can be an asset. If a guy missees a checklist I just run it and say it's "complete". That's not a flipping challenge to anyone's authority, you missed it, I pick it up. I hope to God you do the same. Mesaba begged for that, Pinnacle doesn't need that sort of adult behavior in the cockpit. Ask the guy you've now spent 15 legs and 18 hours in the cockpit with if it's ok if you chime the FA when it's CAVOK. Or when the temp dumps to -8C and the cowls still aren't on IMC. How about I just throw the switches forward and say, "Cowls on for ya." Jynxy, you sure do tell a lot of stories! Wait, you're going to miss my conclusion. A right seat captain can be a good thing for the real captain if he want's help.
So you have a bad right seat CA, a good right seat CA, but the good right seat CA can only be that if the real CA isn't going to shut FO down for making decisions (sometimes wrong ones) on their own.
PS: yes, there are FO's who exercise poor judgement, but that's 5% of your FO's. Mostly they just do things a little different, and different normally isn't bad. A good CA will show that FO where his choice could be even better with a little mentoring.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Sometimes it is the lack of an MEL that concerns me. Had a CA take the advice of one guy in maint aboiut a pack that sounded way off especially during start and shutdown was good to go. The maint guy said it was likely a bearing going bad. Typically that means it could fail at any moment. The last thing I want is to leave with something that could cause smoke in the cabin or worse.
I made sure to make hints to the CA about my discomfort trying to get the CA to make the call. It especially didn't help that the mech wasn't 100% sure what the problem was. Eventually said I wanted the pack MELed and we got it done. Took 5 min for the MEL and we were off.
Could I have been wrong? Sure. But I don't live in a world where "I think it is X, you should be fine" flies. Uncertainty can be a killer.
