Right Seat Captains

[ZapBrannigan]

This is one area where the corporate "co-captain" model is superior. If there is something that needs to be done, it gets done regardless of which pilot does it. Sure, the buck stops with the PIC but since both parties have experience playing that role there is rarely any friction.

I like the Star Trek TNG model. Will Riker never stopped to ask Picard, "do you want me to go to red alert sir?" "Should I arm photon torpedos sir?" He just did what had to be done in partnership with the captain. Nobody ever questioned Picard's authority, but "number one" practiced servant leadership and did the work that needed to be done without waiting for specific orders or permission.

There's your Nerd CRM lesson for the day. You're welcome.

 

[crazyjaydawg]

And forgive me...but...

You're a captain somewhere?

Nope I'm an FO that's heard plenty of feedback from CAs about fellow FOs and I've heard things from FOs that are just down right stupid.

I quantified my OP by saying that safety is first and that anything and everything shall be done to accomplish that, but I've seen and heard about too many FOs that have done things on the list of don'ts in situations that were inappropriate and didn't warrant them. It's good to be helpful, but it's downright wrong to be overbearing and do things that aren't your job.

 

[RRPower]

I for one like the OP. I don't know why you guys are getting so worked up over this thread. There have been plenty of FOs that I've had to fight with to get to do basic functions of their job. There also were plenty of CAs I had to fight with to get them to do basic functions of their job. I do feel like it starts with the CA. He should set a nice example and not be a tool. The FO should follow of the good example a CA sets. He should offer insight and be willing to take initiative. I love nothing more than an FO who loads the FMS and looks at paperwork. I try and leave all paperwork and logbooks within reach of the FO. I hated as an FO when the CA would hoard paperwork on their side and when I would ask to see it, they got all defensive and passive aggressive because they thought I was suggesting they couldn't do their job. Get over it! Despite popular belief, the FO is not overworked. I could compete my required tasks in under 5 minutes and be twiddling my thumbs. The CA on the other hand has a ton of stuff going on that is a little more than busy work. It always helps when the FO steps up and offers to help. Heck yeah, do this, this, and this, and talk to this person and call this person. It is hard to make a good FO or CA in a few bullet points but the OP did a nice job and if they followed those I would be as happy as a clam.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This is one area where the corporate "co-captain" model is superior. If there is something that needs to be done, it gets done regardless of which pilot does it. Sure, the buck stops with the PIC but since both parties have experience playing that role there is rarely any friction.

I like the Star Trek TNG model. Will Riker never stopped to ask Picard, "do you want me to go to red alert sir?" "Should I arm photon torpedos sir?" He just did what had to be done in partnership with the captain. Nobody ever questioned Picard's authority, but "number one" practiced servant leadership and did the work that needed to be done without waiting for specific orders or permission.

There's your Nerd CRM lesson for the day. You're welcome.

I like it. Riker knew what had to be done and what Picard would ask for, and would just do it.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I for one like the OP. I don't know why you guys are getting so worked up over this thread. There have been plenty of FOs that I've had to fight with to get to do basic functions of their job. There also were plenty of CAs I had to fight with to get them to do basic functions of their job. I do feel like it starts with the CA. He should set a nice example and not be a tool. The FO should follow of the good example a CA sets. He should offer insight and be willing to take initiative. I love nothing more than an FO who loads the FMS and looks at paperwork. I try and leave all paperwork and logbooks within reach of the FO. I hated as an FO when the CA would hoard paperwork on their side and when I would ask to see it, they got all defensive and passive aggressive because they thought I was suggesting they couldn't do their job. Get over it! Despite popular belief, the FO is not overworked. I could compete my required tasks in under 5 minutes and be twiddling my thumbs. The CA on the other hand has a ton of stuff going on that is a little more than busy work. It always helps when the FO steps up and offers to help. Heck yeah, do this, this, and this, and talk to this person and call this person. It is hard to make a good FO or CA in a few bullet points but the OP did a nice job and if they followed those I would be as happy as a clam.

At your shop maybe. But at ours, the FOs do a lot more than the CAs do. My buddy from Mesaba was appalled to find out how little work the CAs do compared to the FOs.

 

[desertdog71]

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I've always followed one simple rule: Do it like the captain wants to do it unless he's going to get me killed or violated. Keep it simple.

I've gotta say, though, that some of these rules are pretty ridiculous. Don't put anything in the logbook? Sorry, but if it's broken, it goes in the logbook. I wouldn't be doing my job if the captain was running behind and I'm at the airplane sitting on my hands knowing that something needs to get fixed. Don't talk to operations? Again, that's just not doing your job. If you show up to the airplane and see that you need a takeoff alternate and dispatch didn't give you one, then you need to call dispatch and get it taken care of so the captain isn't asses and elbows trying to get it done at the last minute just because you didn't do your job.

Presumably, if you're sitting in the right seat, it's because you've earned the right to be there. You're an airline pilot, and you need to act like one. You aren't there just to warm a seat and say "yes sir." You're there to do a job that the company pays you to do, and that job is safely and efficiently moving metal and people from Point A to Point B. Do that job.

 

[surreal1221]

Nope I'm an FO that's heard plenty of feedback from CAs about fellow FOs and I've heard things from FOs that are just down right stupid. I quantified my OP by saying that safety is first and that anything and everything shall be done to accomplish that, but I've seen and heard about too many FOs that have done things on the list of don'ts in situations that were inappropriate and didn't warrant them. It's good to be helpful, but it's downright wrong to be overbearing and do things that aren't your job.

Hey, it's cool - it was an innocent question. Notice I even "liked" your post. No fouls committed.

The first day you're a captain you can say yes to that, but on that first day, you don't have any street cred. Why talk down to someone who's considering what that role is before they get there? Besides, we probably SHOULD know enough to have an opinion on our teammates' roles. It's healthy, as far as I'm concerned.

Right, and read my posted reply above.

 

[crazyjaydawg]

Hey, it's cool - it was an innocent question. Notice I even "liked" your post. No fouls committed.



Right, and read my posted reply above.

No worries, I definitely intend for this to be a good discussion and not all about "ARGGHH MY OPINION IS FACT!!! ARGGHHHHH"

 

[falconvalley]

Hey, it's cool - it was an innocent question. Notice I even "liked" your post. No fouls committed.



Right, and read my posted reply above.

Got it

 

[crashmbern]

What 3 things does a good FO say?

Clear right
You're right
I'll take the fat one.

 

[derg]

Just do what's right, follow procedures the way the boss-man says, provide great customer service and, as an adult, you shouldn't need to be constantly prompted to do any of that.

Yup, it IS your job and you knew you weren't going to be paid for it when you signed up.

No one cares that you're mad, frustrated or that the company isn't treating you well. Take care of your customers, leave the bitterness, frustration and anger behind the locked cockpit door or the pilot lounge and never in the cabin or in the terminal.

On speaking up from the right seat: It's the captains final decision, yes. But if that decision is poor and you get busted, you'll both be at the hearing. When the captain screws up, the board will ask what steps you took to stop him and ask how you made a compelling case during the deviation from procedure or good decision-making. If you throw up your hands and say "not my job", the FAA will steal your wimmins and eat your lunch.

Do not make the mistake of thinking "Captain's Authority" means a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. It's not. If you pull that card, you'd better be right because it's like wading into an alligator-infested swamp with a suit made of raw chicken and squirrel then challenging Mr. Gator and his friends to a wrestling match.

Lessons from going to the "big brown desk" and surviving.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Just do what's right, follow procedures the way the boss-man says, provide great customer service and, as an adult, you shouldn't need to be constantly prompted to do any of that.

Yup, it IS your job and you knew you weren't going to be paid for it when you signed up.

No one cares that you're mad, frustrated or that the company isn't treating you well. Take care of your customers, leave the bitterness, frustration and anger behind the locked cockpit door or the pilot lounge and never in the cabin or in the terminal.

On speaking up from the right seat: It's the captains final decision, yes. But if that decision is poor and you get busted, you'll both be at the hearing. When the captain screws up, the board will ask what steps you took to stop him and ask how you made a compelling case during the deviation from procedure or good decision-making. If you throw up your hands and say "not my job", the FAA will steal your wimmins and eat your lunch.

Do not make the mistake of thinking "Captain's Authority" means a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. It's not. If you pull that card, you'd better be right because it's like wading into an alligator-infested swamp with a suit made of raw chicken and squirrel then challenging Mr. Gator and his friends to a wrestling match.

Lessons from going to the "big brown desk" and surviving.

/thread

It's not a hard job.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

At your shop maybe. But at ours, the FOs do a lot more than the CAs do. My buddy from Mesaba was appalled to find out how little work the CAs do compared to the FOs.

This seat, this airplane is widely considered the hardest job in the Company. (I mean, I don't think it's that bad, but compared to my jet brethren...)

 

[BobDDuck]

I'd guess that some of the blowback has to do with the thread title. A "right seat captain" is a slur, as it were. I don't think that was the point the OP was trying to make.

That said, there is no list to follow about how to be a "good" FO. You need to be able to adjust on the fly and yet still work within the parameters set by the company and safety.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

This seat, this airplane is widely considered the hardest job in the Company. (I mean, I don't think it's that bad, but compared to my jet brethren...)

Is your Seminole really that complicated?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I'd guess that some of the blowback has to do with the thread title. A "right seat captain" is a slur, as it were. I don't think that was the point the OP was trying to make.

That said, there is no list to follow about how to be a "good" FO. You need to be able to adjust on the fly and yet still work within the parameters set by the company and safety.

Example: If you don't want me to flip those four switches until you mumble "below the line," I won't. I think it makes you a bit of a micro-manager, but hey, you're technically correct.

Is your Seminole really that complicated?

Packs on, probes on, mumble mumble.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Example: If you don't want me to flip those four switches until you mumble "below the line," I won't. I think it makes you a bit of a micro-manager, but hey, you're technically correct.


Packs on, probes on, mumble mumble.

I'm a big fan of standardization. As an FO, I wait for the captain to call for the things because A, that's what he's supposed to do, it's the expectation. And B, some guys get really bent out of shape if you don't wait.

I know it seems silly, but the little things matter. The difference in a micro manager vs not is just in how you handle being standard.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I'm a big fan of standardization. As an FO, I wait for the captain to call for the things because A, that's what he's supposed to do, it's the expectation. And B, some guys get really bent out of shape if you don't wait.

I know it seems silly, but the little things matter. The difference in a micro manager vs not is just in how you handle being standard.

Sure.

(I fly with a LOT of check airmen; I'll explain this particular thing to you at length, offline, if you so desire.)

 

[jtrain609]

I'm a big fan of standardization. As an FO, I wait for the captain to call for the things because A, that's what he's supposed to do, it's the expectation. And B, some guys get really bent out of shape if you don't wait.

I know it seems silly, but the little things matter. The difference in a micro manager vs not is just in how you handle being standard.

I'm not positive of that. All of the guys that I'd term micro-managers were far from standard. They wanted to micro-manage me into flying their non-standard way.