Right Seat Captains

crazyjaydawg

Well-Known Member
So I was reading the MMMTO thread and there was a little bit of a thread-drift that went into the topic of how valuable the FO is and what an FO should or shouldn't do. So to clear things up (haha yeah right) and promote a discussion about how an FO should or shouldn't act, I'm starting this thread.

@jtrain609 said the most concise and accurate description of how an FO should act and I've quoted it here:
You misunderstand what I'm saying. I also hate the attitude of, "they don't pay me enough to care," because that attitude is BS. The fact of the matter is that it's the captains show, not mine. Stepping up with the wrong captain is a recipe to get chewed out and ruin CRM for the remainder of the trip. Laying back in the cut and SUPPORTING the captain is my role. Or said another way, my job is to make them look good by doing everything laid out for me in the FOM quickly and efficiently.

But I don't make decisions. If the skipper wants my input, he gets it. If the skipper is going to throw the FOM out of the window or try to kill us, I'm here to stop him.

But I'm not here to dictate to the captain about how he will run his ship within the confines of the FOM. I'm not here to be a left seat captain.
Some people threw in their own opinions, but for the most part I think that the point was hit squarely on the head; however I would like to offer my own opinion as well as some dos and don'ts for First (don't call us Co-Captains) Officers.

An FO is part of the team. An invaluable asset that acts as the Captain's right-hand man and as a flight crew they conduct a safe operation. To put it in sports (football) terminology, the FO is like the RB while the CA is QB, yeah sometimes the FO needs to do some extra work to carry the team, but for the most part the CA is large and in charge and calling the shots (seriously he makes the extra money so he better be buying the drinks at the layover bar).

In my view, and I know that YMMV, I believe that a good FO is one that is hardly noticed and does everything required of him or her safely, quickly and efficiently. If a trip is completed without anyone noticing the FO then I would say, "that's a job damn well done."

So to conclude my feelings on the matter, I've decided to make a list of dos and don'ts for how an FO should and shouldn't act. Let me say that above all else I believe that safety is paramount and if there is ever a doubt of the safety of an operation the FO absolutely has the authority and responsibility to stop the operation until it is safe to continue. So without further ado,

An FO should:
1. Be on time. Nothing ruins a trip like starting out late because somebody decided to sleep in for an extra 10 minutes.
2. Be prepared. Nobody likes doing anybody else's job because they're too lazy to do it themselves. Seriously, it's not that hard to keep your manuals and Jepps up to date.
3. Know the FOM and CFM/AFM. If the CA ever needs help explaining to DX or MX an issue that they have, nothing is better than having a right-hand man that has the reference material open to the applicable section to help him explain his case.
4. Call catering or cleaners if it's past the time when it should have been done by now. You really don't need somebody else to tell you to do this, do you?
5. Plan to do every walk-around. This may go without saying, but there are some FOs...
6. Set up every leg to be the CA's leg. This may sound odd at first, but really it's the CA's show. Don't show up to an airplane with a new CA or on a new day and just expect the trip to be yours. Good CAs are really good at letting you know that it's your leg. Bad CAs need that olive branch that you're going to assume every leg is theirs, and really if a CA is a judgmental •, I'd rather be on the radios instead of being critiqued on everyone of my approaches and landings.

An FO should not:
1. Be late. Seriously this mirrors #1 above, but this is an industry where punctuality is everything. Don't be that guy.
2. Write up MX for the a/c. Of course if the CA directs you to do it for him, or it's go home leg and he has a tight connect for a commute, then yeah go ahead and fill out the logbook and deal with mx. If it's because you think there is a rip in the carpet between rows 11 and 12, then I say get over yourself and let the CA make the decisions.
3. Talk to DX, Crew Sched, Station Ops or anybody else that has control of the operation without consulting the CA first. Please don't be the person that calls DX and adds a ton of fuel for no reason because you think it's a good idea, consult with the left seat first. Again if the CA directs you to inform some of the above staff in the event of a delay then you do it because you're part of the team and that's just good CRM. Also if there is no CA at the airplane it is your show and you should work with DX and Crew Sched to figure out where the CA is before you work with other groups to start making delays and screwing up the operation.
4. Call for checklists outside of the PF/PM realm. On the ground the CA is in charge of most checklists so let him do his thing. If it seems like he's forgotten something then make a suggestion, i.e. "hey boss do you want me to configure the flaps?" or like @Derg 's story, "would you like me to start #2?" But for the most part, let the left seat decide when the beacon or seat belt sign needs to be turned on.
5. Give complete FA briefings without the CA delegating it. Yeah you can answer questions about the flight time on the release or number of expected pax, but please don't brief about turbulence or security issues. Those things can get serious really fast and it's important that the person who signs for the flight is the person that is providing instruction and information first hand. After all that is why the left seat is making all the money.

I know that many people will disagree with what I've said, but I hope I can at least open the door and start a discussion about what a good FO looks and acts like. Maybe one day when I finally upgrade I'll write another rant about how a CA should act, until then please don't be the FO that makes the rest of us look bad.

P.S. An FO is in fact allowed to buy a round of drinks for the crew once in a while. :D
 
I have no idea what the purpose of this thread is.

You can't quantitate what a good FO or CAPT is in four or five bullet points. I've also done (last trip actually!) some of your supposed 'do nots' and it was appreciated by the Captain.
 
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I know that you are practically mainline but Y'all ever hear that simpler is better?

It's the overall attitude that makes a good FO or CAPT. Not ridiculous bullet points.
Haha we know that but there are people out there that do many of those things mentioned and make things overly complicated, I have heard of many at Minnesotajets. So why not discuss it in a nice non threatening environment like @Derg s living room.
 
Haha we know that but there are people out there that do many of those things mentioned and make things overly complicated.

Then the Captain should mentor the First Officer. If that doesn't work, a call to ProStandards works really well.

Guarantee they won't use bullet points on behavior to get the conversation going. Once again, you can't quantify these things in bullet points.

So why not discuss it in a nice non threatening environment like @Derg s living room.

I just did.
 
I have no idea what the purpose of this thread is.

You can't quantitate what a good FO or CAPT is in four or five bullet points. I've also done (last trip actually!) some of your supposed 'do nots' and it was appreciated by the Captain.
I agree with you, I could have written a 30+ page paper on the minute differences in the positional roles that each member of a cockpit crew shall adhere to, but alas I kept it as brief as I could. There are exceptions to every rule and I'm not about to publish them as "crazyjaydawg's first law of first officer, etc..." I was trying trying to continue an discussion that began to rear its head in the MMMTO thread. Nothing in this world makes me more upset than an FO that over steps his bounds and starts thinking that he's wearing 3.95 stripes...

Maybe I'm just too militarized or maybe I just have too much common sense for the general airline pilot.
 
The role of the captain and the FO is to work as a team to minimize risk. The challenge is to meld unique personalities into a common goal without letting our "quirky qualities" get in the way. The captain should set the general tone and be clear on any specifics he or she expects from the FO. I have personally found that FOs do their best work when you leave them alone and let them do their work. Captains have to be a bit flexible too because no two FOs will do things exactly the same way. You both have to find a window to operate in safely while letting some uniqueness into the equation. As long as neither seat gets too wrapped up with unworkable expectations, 99.5 percent of your flights should be uneventful, and enjoyable. A checklist of dos and don'ts is tough to generate as there are zillions of scenarios that would alter that script. Be respectful in both seats and speak up if you're not comfortable with something. At the end of the day you will both go to bed happy about the way your day turned out. There are always a few exceptions, but just taking your job seriously and doing your very best almost always guarantees a good, enjoyable and safe trip.
 
"Can't sit here"

"Seats taken"

Cute girl that turns out to be bat-shoot crazy, "You can sit here."

So what you're saying is, is that all my life I'm going to want to get some with this chick, after refusing me for douchebags many times over she finally decides to go for a sympathy screw only to leave me walk-of-shame style before I wake up. She will only finally marry me when she has born my child and is months away from dying of AIDS (which I should probably get myself checked for, btw).

Yup, sounds like the story of a freight dog.
 
So what you're saying is, is that all my life I'm going to want to get some with this chick, after refusing me for douchebags many times over she finally decides to go for a sympathy screw only to leave me walk-of-shame style before I wake up. She will only finally marry me when she has born my child and is months away from dying of AIDS (which I should probably get myself checked for, btw).

Yup, sounds like the story of a freight dog.
Wow, you got that metaphor really quickly.

Speaking of getting yourself checked, you're smarter than most freight dogs that I know. You should look into that.
 
Having been the "HMFIC" for almost 7 years, I call BS on the list(s).

This isn't the Captain's "show", it is the entire crew's show. Everyone is responsible for operating the flight safely and efficiently/by the book.

Professionals know their role and know everyone else's role. When slack needs taking in, it gets taken in.
 
Having been the "HMFIC" for almost 7 years, I call BS on the list(s).

This isn't the Captain's "show", it is the entire crew's show. Everyone is responsible for operating the flight safely and efficiently/by the book.

Professionals know their role and know everyone else's role. When slack needs taking in, it gets taken in.
Maybe I was misrepresented with my OP, but I did mention that the FO is part of the team, not the team. Therefore an FO should do their part and step up when they need to, but not try and steal the show every chance that they get.

Maybe I'm just getting old and I want these damn kids off of my lawn, but I don't think that there is any place in this world for FOs that think they should be writing stuff up and calling up MX and DX and just taking over the show because they feel like they're large and in charge.

A good FO is prepared and ready to step up when needed, yet smart enough to know when to just do their job and get the mission accomplished.
 
crazyjaydawg said:
Maybe I was misrepresented with my OP, but I did mention that the FO is part of the team, not the team. Therefore an FO should do their part and step up when they need to, but not try and steal the show every chance that they get. Maybe I'm just getting old and I want these damn kids off of my lawn, but I don't think that there is any place in this world for FOs that think they should be writing stuff up and calling up MX and DX and just taking over the show because they feel like they're large and in charge. A good FO is prepared and ready to step up when needed, yet smart enough to know when to just do their job and get the mission accomplished.

And forgive me...but...

You're a captain somewhere?
 
And forgive me...but...

You're a captain somewhere?

The first day you're a captain you can say yes to that, but on that first day, you don't have any street cred. Why talk down to someone who's considering what that role is before they get there? Besides, we probably SHOULD know enough to have an opinion on our teammates' roles. It's healthy, as far as I'm concerned.
 
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