SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Was out there?
Right Seat Captains
- Thread starter crazyjaydawg
- Start date
Was out there?
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
NewYorkophile
Fly Casual
But from what I'm reading in this thread, even our crew on the C-130 is more transparent than the Captain/FO relationships discussed above. The Herk is interesting because it's impossible for the A/C to have 100% of the information available, or even 100% of the knowledge required, to operate it. If something's wrong with our flight computer or radar, he generally doesn't know anything about it. If the engineer sees a gauge error and it's non essential, he may just write it up without even mentioning it. If the 18-year-old loadmaster, who can't even see out the front of the airplane, feels like something is wrong on the approach and calls Go Around, we Go Around, no question. In no way shape or form am I comparing a loadie to a flight attendant, but I HIGHLY doubt any of you would Go Around on the FA's call (barring a fire or missing parts).
I'm also sure we've all heard the fighter euphemism: The only thing I want you to say is "2", "Lead's on fire", and "I'll take the fat one." I'm sure that culture is a little different (and yes, wingmen are treated as crewmembers).
Each airplane requires a unique application of CRM.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
You guys have a ProStands committee or something equivalent? This guy might be too far gone but it also might help. Just suggestions.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Sometimes the Internet is wrong.But the internet says otherwise!!!
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Apparently he has been "big brother counseled" by several captains recently.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
Hopefully homeboy takes it to heart. I would hate to be treated like a scab for the rest of my days.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
It is?
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
That's one of the irritating parts of being an FO at Surejet. I can't actually put stuff in the can per company policy. That doesn't stop me from callin MX out in the absence of the captain. I just have the mechanic write it up.
JohnGardner
Member
What entertaining read. My two favorites are "Co-captains" and "It's just like Star Trek" as if these are ok things to say. LOL
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
But...what if it IS just like Star Trek?
crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
I think people are taking the Dos and Don'ts as too much of a black and white issue. There are exceptions to every rule and I clearly stated that at the beginning. The issue that I have is fellow FOs that feel the need to be the first to write up trivial crap without even discussing it with the CA, I've seen a/c swaps because an FO thought it was a great idea to call DX and call for more fuel for no good reason and the plane ended up being above PMLW.
Sure I've seen captains do the same dumb things without talking to an FO, but that's the Captain's prerogative, he makes the extra money to be on the hook for that crap and I'm not a CA, so I'm not going to judge someone else's job too terribly much as I'm not in that seat.
Finally, @Seggy , I said in my OP that you should know your manuals and the specific example I gave was having the ability to open up the manual(s) to the correct sections in order to use the references correctly and quickly when needed. I know too many pilots sitting in either seat that couldn't find the index of the FOM and it's just damn sad.
Sure I've seen captains do the same dumb things without talking to an FO, but that's the Captain's prerogative, he makes the extra money to be on the hook for that crap and I'm not a CA, so I'm not going to judge someone else's job too terribly much as I'm not in that seat.
Finally, @Seggy , I said in my OP that you should know your manuals and the specific example I gave was having the ability to open up the manual(s) to the correct sections in order to use the references correctly and quickly when needed. I know too many pilots sitting in either seat that couldn't find the index of the FOM and it's just damn sad.
crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
Wow, I never said anything that would go against that. If the Capt is busy doing something and isn't planeside then it's 100% your call. You kept the operation moving. The issue arises when an FA comes up to the front and says something about a tray table having a crack on it and the FO reaches to call MX before the CA or FO even have a chance to get up and see what is or isn't broken. Same thing when a ramper reports a/c "damage." Sure it may end up being something that needs to be looked at by MX, but I'd feel a lot better if somebody actually looked at it before writing up the plane and calling MX out.
Please continue to read my posts and interpret them in any way you see fit in order for you to be as argumentative as possible.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Out of curiousity, what is "trivial crap"?
If it's not working its not working. End of discussion, call MX, put it in the book.
I know you are not suggesting that a bay maintenance light that no one sees should be written up in base vs at the outstation, but it sure reads that way.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what happened. A FA came up and said the tray table was broken. I trusted her and called MX to fix it.
I trust my crew members to let me know when something needs to be looked at in the back. Are you saying that we should let those items go??? Or dismiss what they are saying????
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Heh, had a line check, and a new FA... She comes up while the LCA is looking over our manuals and certificates and says "hey, xyz is broken but we will just write it up when we get back to base as usual right?"
My jaw dropped.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I've had that happen before. The FA came up with a Fed on the jumpseat and said that a seat wouldn't stay upright but that she wasn't "really" telling us because she had a commute to catch after that turn.
Fortunately he just laughed at her.
T-Gates
Well-Known Member
Personality traits aside, Captains can build their own barriers to CRM by believing that they somehow possess more knowledge than the person in the right seat, therefore, that's what makes them a Captain.
In reality, that's 110% wrong.
The knowledge level requirements for a First Officer and a Captain at every airline I have worked at have been identical. Having given check rides to both seats, I held both seats to the same knowledge requirements. What makes the difference between the Captain and the First Officer is that, traditionally, the Captain should possess more experience to be able to wield that knowledge more effectively and take responsibility for it's application.
Now because of the absolute seniority train wreck that this industry has become, the most experience in the cockpit is not always weighted on the left seat. There are plenty of regional airlines out there who have FO's with thousands of hours of PIC in type pulling gear for brand new Captains. And every combination in the middle.
A good Captain will poll their crew to find out their experience so that they may use that experience effectively as situations warrant.
I learned a good lesson in this from a Captain at a previous airline. We were dispatched into an airport with a 7000' runway which was wet, and there was a 20kt. crosswind, and was only served by a VOR approach. To top it off, we had a FAA Inspector on the jumpseat. The Captain looked at me and said "Didn't you just say you went to recurrent last week?". I said yes, and he told me that If I felt comfortable, I should take the leg since I was probably more current on non-precision approach procedures than he was.
That really stuck with me. Here was a Captain, with many years flying wide-body aircraft, who recognized that because of this one specific situation, his First Officer was probably better suited to fly the leg than he was. It wasn't because I was smarter, or more experienced, but that the specifics of the day leaned towards the fact that my recency of experience with non-precision approaches would be of benefit. Where many, many Captains, possibly even myself before that day, would have just taken the leg because it seemed like the "normal" thing to do.
Those are the guys you try and model yourself after and who end up building the most CRM friendly environments in the flight deck.
In reality, that's 110% wrong.
The knowledge level requirements for a First Officer and a Captain at every airline I have worked at have been identical. Having given check rides to both seats, I held both seats to the same knowledge requirements. What makes the difference between the Captain and the First Officer is that, traditionally, the Captain should possess more experience to be able to wield that knowledge more effectively and take responsibility for it's application.
Now because of the absolute seniority train wreck that this industry has become, the most experience in the cockpit is not always weighted on the left seat. There are plenty of regional airlines out there who have FO's with thousands of hours of PIC in type pulling gear for brand new Captains. And every combination in the middle.
A good Captain will poll their crew to find out their experience so that they may use that experience effectively as situations warrant.
I learned a good lesson in this from a Captain at a previous airline. We were dispatched into an airport with a 7000' runway which was wet, and there was a 20kt. crosswind, and was only served by a VOR approach. To top it off, we had a FAA Inspector on the jumpseat. The Captain looked at me and said "Didn't you just say you went to recurrent last week?". I said yes, and he told me that If I felt comfortable, I should take the leg since I was probably more current on non-precision approach procedures than he was.
That really stuck with me. Here was a Captain, with many years flying wide-body aircraft, who recognized that because of this one specific situation, his First Officer was probably better suited to fly the leg than he was. It wasn't because I was smarter, or more experienced, but that the specifics of the day leaned towards the fact that my recency of experience with non-precision approaches would be of benefit. Where many, many Captains, possibly even myself before that day, would have just taken the leg because it seemed like the "normal" thing to do.
Those are the guys you try and model yourself after and who end up building the most CRM friendly environments in the flight deck.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
That's all well and good, but if you continue to write up "there is a screw loose on the captains seat" you and me are going to have issues.
Maintenance has never found a loose screw on any of your write-ups, but then again, I was probably out doing your walk arounds.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Had a captain recently explain everything to me. Gets annoying really fast on a 4 day trip.
