passenger at the gate aggressive towards FA

[dasleben]

The crew shouldn't be getting involved in deciding who to remove. The Station Operations Manual (or your airline's equivalent) will stipulate how it's to be done, and we aren't trained in that as pilots. Let the gate agent worry about that, and then the crew should back her up.

I'm not talking about basic "oversold" scenarios and whatnot. That's not my job to handle all that. I'm referring to this scenario where passengers are becoming aggressive. Then it's the PIC/SIC's decision to remove that passenger.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Ok, first off, the agent should have also said "We have one too many lap infants, is anyone with a lap infant willing to get off in exchange for _____". In fact, the DOT says the gate agent HAS to do that and your airline can actually be fined due to the fact the agent went straight to dragging people off unwillingly without an solicitation for volunteers. The last to check-in thing is a last resort when no one wants to get off, not the first thing you do.

Second, someone should have made the gate agent come back down the second the family didn't get right off. The gate agent should have stayed onboard or in the door until the person was off anyway, but if she didn't, she should have been requested back to the plane.

Finally, how could all of you leave the F/A hanging like that? Both you and the gate agent should have gotten involved right away. Maybe its just my nature, but whenever one of my fellow gate agents or a flight attendant is being verbally abused, I go toe-to-toe with the offending person and set them straight. When you walk up chest to chest and tell them to knock it off or you're throwing their ass out of the airport, they calm down real fast. When they don't, the PIC always backs our decision that the person needs to cool down and shouldn't be on the flight. I don't see how you guys could sit there and not think about getting involved, I've been in these situations, and my first instinct is to put out the flames. I feel real sorry for her. If I were the F/A, I wouldn't have any faith in my crew after that. Big no no.

 

[MQAAord]

From a F/A standpoint, I have to say where was the agent, not where was the CA. Sounds like the CA was in ops doing stuff pertaining to his job duties, and there's no problem with that. This situation was directly related to the agent's duties, the boarding/removing process is something that the agent is supposed to orchestrate. That's what they do. The agent (IMO) should have never left the plane without the people s/he was supposed to be removing.

In that situation, I would have been asking the F/O to call ops to get the agent back down to the plane ASAP, even possibly getting the station manager if s/he happens to be around. The others are right that there is a defined process as to the removal of pax, and I have no idea what it is. That's in the agent/station's manual, not mine.

 

[BobDDuck]

Marcus, sometimes all it takes is standing in the cockpit doorway and making eye contact with the offending party, especially when they are moving forward already to get off the plane, or give the FA problems. In this situation you completely let your FA down by isolating her. The woman who was swearing as she exited the plane WAS creating a situation and even if it was momentarily escalated by your presence you need to show (to both the FA and the other passengers) that somebody is in charge of things.

When a job application asks for PIC time and states that it is time that YOU were responsible for the airframe, this is what they mean.

That said, I think it's commendable that you posted this for others (and yourself) to learn from.

 

[JEP]

Marcus, sometimes all it takes is standing in the cockpit doorway and making eye contact with the offending party, especially when they are moving forward already to get off the plane, or give the FA problems. In this situation you completely let your FA down by isolating her. The woman who was swearing as she exited the plane WAS creating a situation and even if it was momentarily escalated by your presence you need to show (to both the FA and the other passengers) that somebody is in charge of things.

When a job application asks for PIC time and states that it is time that YOU were responsible for the airframe, this is what they mean.

That said, I think it's commendable that you posted this for others (and yourself) to learn from.

BDD, I don't think this is Marcus. I thoguht Marcus was Trip7 whereas this is Triple7....

 

[Guy]

I think it's commendable that you posted this for others (and yourself) to learn from.

:yeahthat:

Life is a learning experience. Anyone who cannot think of dozens of situations they would have handled differently if they had it to do over again is someone who has a serious problem with introspection.

 

[BobDDuck]

BDD, I don't think this is Marcus. I thoguht Marcus was Trip7 whereas this is Triple7....

Yep... Realized that for two VERY obvious reasons after the fact. My apologies Triple7.

 

[Baronpilot244]

To the OP - report to this guy immediately! He'll get you in shape for dealing with abusive pax!








Bp244

 

[mshunter]

You wanna wear those stripes, then act like a man and earn them.

Sometimes you gotta let people know this your your damn plane and if they dont like something then they can pound sand.

+1. "Look lady, if you have a complaint, take it up with the people responsible for this. We are in the middle as much as you. You need to get off my airplane, or I'll have you removed."

Have I ever been in that situation where someone was pissed and creating a scene? Not on an airplane, but I have still had to deal with irate people in other circumstances.

 

[Alchemy]

I think you handled it as best as you possibly could. When someone is enraged and dropping F bombs, there is probably not any kind of rational explanation you could offer that would calm them down or diffuse the situation. If someone refused to comply with a crewmember's instruction to get off the airplane, I'd be calling for security.....but it sounds like this person was reluctantly complying.

Unless physical violence was occurring, I didn't see much of a need for you to go back there, especially considering the tight confines of an RJ where there isn't a lot of room to have a 4 way conversation.

Honestly someone does deserve to get cursed out for booking the plane in the manner that they did, and it's unfortunate that the FA and Gate agent were the most convenient targets at the time. The FA should get used to it though....maybe if this causes her to quit now she'll be better off in the long haul, because this isn't the last time something like this will happen to her.

I'm probably in the minority, but why subject yourself to irate passengers who are upset about problems you didn't create when you're not paid or trained to do it? Unless there is a physical altercation occuring that needs to be dealt with, let the people who deal with these issues every day sort them out.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

I think you handled it as best as you possibly could. When someone is enraged and dropping F bombs, there is probably not any kind of rational explanation you could offer that would calm them down or diffuse the situation. If someone refused to comply with a crewmember's instruction to get off the airplane, I'd be calling for security.....but it sounds like this person was reluctantly complying.

Unless physical violence was occurring, I didn't see much of a need for you to go back there, especially considering the tight confines of an RJ where there isn't a lot of room to have a 4 way conversation.

Honestly someone does deserve to get cursed out for booking the plane in the manner that they did, and it's unfortunate that the FA and Gate agent were the most convenient targets at the time. The FA should get used to it though....maybe if this causes her to quit now she'll be better off in the long haul, because this isn't the last time something like this will happen to her.

I'm probably in the minority, but why subject yourself to irate passengers who are upset about problems you didn't create when you're not paid or trained to do it? Unless there is a physical altercation occuring that needs to be dealt with, let the people who deal with these issues every day sort them out.

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. At the very least, he could have gone and stood next to the flight attendant so she felt like she had some backup. That act alone could have made the lady calm down.

He wouldn't have to be confrontational. A simple, "M'am, please step off of the aircraft." probably would have been sufficient, and if not, the boys in blue are a radio call away. I likely would have done it in this order....but this is just my opinion...

1. Go ahead and make the radio call for a LEO. They probably don't mind coming down for a little backup, and it never hurts to have the cops close when a situation is getting volatile.

2. Stand beside the FA, and see if that clears up the situation.

3. Politely ask the lady to mind her language, and to please exit the aircraft.

4. Invite the LEO on board if the lady didn't calm down.

I do hear you though. Most of the time unless things get out of hand, we in the flight deck don't do much to interact with the removal of a passenger. That is what the red coats get the big bucks for, right?

 

[Alchemy]

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. At the very least, he could have gone and stood next to the flight attendant so she felt like she had some backup. That act alone could have made the lady calm down.

See, I think this is where a pilot's ego can be his or her downfall. We all like to think that we have the power to smooth things over with a good PA or a steely look in the eyes. In reality, going back there to gang up on the passenger is not necessarily going to de-escalate a conflict and may in fact make it worse by causing the irate person to feel cornered. They might also be emboldened by the perceived support of their fellow passengers. Which is why I said I'd call security and let the professionals handle it, unless there was immediate physical danger to a crew member OR they really weren't going to get off the plane; however it appears that they reluctantly did agree to deplane.

Where, on an ERJ, are you going to stand next to a Flight attendant? The only thing you're going to do by going back there is block the very exit through which the booted passengers need to vacate the aircraft. You're just going to get in the way. The FA is just green and thus the tears....in this industry you have to able to shake this sort of thing off or you just won't last.

In the end, the passenger was completely justified in swearing at any airline official within earshot! That's what makes this different from most situations.....if the passenger is unjustifiably being an ass then yeah, maybe it justifies your intervention, but in this case they were clearly wronged and are 100% justified in being irate. Nothing you say or do is going to change that, and if they're getting off the plane anyway, it's a waste of time to go back there. Only the gate agent has the power to fix it via rebooking, compensation, meal vouchers, etc....the FA should just be telling them to direct their complaints to the agent.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

See, I think this is where a pilot's ego can be his or her downfall. We all like to think that we have the power to smooth things over with a good PA or a steely look in the eyes. In reality, going back there to gang up on the passenger is not necessarily going to de-escalate a conflict and may in fact make it worse by causing the irate person to feel cornered. They might also be emboldened by the perceived support of their fellow passengers. Which is why I said I'd call security and let the professionals handle it, unless there was immediate physical danger to a crew member OR they really weren't going to get off the plane; however it appears that they reluctantly did agree to deplane.

Where, on an ERJ, are you going to stand next to a Flight attendant? The only thing you're going to do by going back there is block the very exit through which the booted passengers need to vacate the aircraft. You're just going to get in the way. The FA is just green and thus the tears....in this industry you have to able to shake this sort of thing off or you just won't last.

In the end, the passenger was completely justified in swearing at any airline official within earshot! That's what makes this different from most situations.....if the passenger is unjustifiably being an ass then yeah, maybe it justifies your intervention, but in this case they were clearly wronged and are 100% justified in being irate. Nothing you say or do is going to change that, and if they're getting off the plane anyway, it's a waste of time to go back there. Only the gate agent has the power to fix it via rebooking, compensation, meal vouchers, etc....the FA should just be telling them to direct their complaints to the agent.

Then stand in the flight deck doorway, not beside the FA if it is too crowded. This isn't ego, dude. It is just showing solidarity as a crew. Just sitting up front, sipping a soda while a situation is developing in the back is, in my opinion, irresponsible. (For the guy who told this story, I'm not intending to bash on you at all. This obviously was a difficult situation we all could have learned from.)

And I don't think the passenger is justified in swearing at anyone. Fine, be angry, but be civil. There isn't any reason to get out of control. If you do, you should expect law enforcement to get involved.

They also weren't wronged. Policy was followed, and unfortunately, they were at the receiving end of a bad situation. Maybe the gate agent wasn't polite, but if the policy is that the last people on are the first off, how is that being wronged? The regs state that the kids need an O2 mask. The policy states the last people on the plane get off first. Sounds like they just had some bad luck. That's no excuse for poor behavior.


Maybe I'm taking the wrong view here. Thoughts?

 

[Qgar]

Then stand in the flight deck doorway, not beside the FA if it is too crowded. This isn't ego, dude. It is just showing solidarity as a crew. Just sitting up front, sipping a soda while a situation is developing in the back is, in my opinion, irresponsible. (For the guy who told this story, I'm not intending to bash on you at all. This obviously was a difficult situation we all could have learned from.)

And I don't think the passenger is justified in swearing at anyone. Fine, be angry, but be civil. There isn't any reason to get out of control. If you do, you should expect law enforcement to get involved.

They also weren't wronged. Policy was followed, and unfortunately, they were at the receiving end of a bad situation. Maybe the gate agent wasn't polite, but if the policy is that the last people on are the first off, how is that being wronged? The regs state that the kids need an O2 mask. The policy states the last people on the plane get off first. Sounds like they just had some bad luck. That's no excuse for poor behavior.


Maybe I'm taking the wrong view here. Thoughts?

FWIW, I agree with you TOTALLY! A crew needs to present a united front and show the passengers that unruly behavior will NOT be tolerated under any circumstances.

The OP's intentions were clearly not malicious in any way, shape or form and he admits he probably could have handled the situation differently. I'm afraid he will get a reputation among FAs of a pilot who had a chance to right a bad situation, but instead did nothing.

 

[Alchemy]

They also weren't wronged. Policy was followed, and unfortunately, they were at the receiving end of a bad situation. Maybe the gate agent wasn't polite, but if the policy is that the last people on are the first off, how is that being wronged? The regs state that the kids need an O2 mask. The policy states the last people on the plane get off first. Sounds like they just had some bad luck. That's no excuse for poor behavior.


Maybe I'm taking the wrong view here. Thoughts?

Oh I'd say the unseated pax were definitely wronged. The airline's booking software should be designed to catch the problem when more than the allowed number of lap children attempt to be booked on a flight. Sure, it's definitely in poor taste to let loose the f bombs, especially with children around, but the airline undoubtedly dropped the ball on this one.

 

[Qgar]

Oh I'd say the unseated pax were definitely wronged. The airline's booking software should be designed to catch the problem when more than the allowed number of lap children attempt to be booked on a flight. Sure, it's definitely in poor taste to let loose the f bombs, especially with children around, but the airline undoubtedly dropped the ball on this one.

Whether the airline dropped the ball on it, whether the gate agent was rude and uncompassionate is NOT the issue here. The issue is one crewmember leaving another crewmember twisting in the wind and in a potentially dangerous situation. Like it or not, crewmembers become your family when you're working together. Would you let a relative remain in a situation like that while you sat and did nothing?

I have to be honest here, there have been pilots I've worked with who I liked personally but knew were wussies by their inaction on certain issues. On the flip side, there were pilots I didn't particularly care for, but had a ton of respect for when they stood up for me or for other crewmembers.

 

[Alchemy]

Whether the airline dropped the ball on it, whether the gate agent was rude and uncompassionate is NOT the issue here. The issue is one crewmember leaving another crewmember twisting in the wind and in a potentially dangerous situation. Like it or not, crewmembers become your family when you're working together. Would you let a relative remain in a situation like that while you sat and did nothing?

I have to be honest here, there have been pilots I've worked with who I liked personally but knew were wussies by their inaction on certain issues. On the flip side, there were pilots I didn't particularly care for, but had a ton of respect for when they stood up for me or for other crewmembers.

It's pretty unfair to say that this pilot is going to get some kind of negative reputation because a flight attendant couldn't handle a few swear words from an angry customer. The biggest issue here seems to be that a passenger made a flight attendant cry. Yeah like everyone else, I probably would've said something to the woman if I saw my FA getting chewed out in the galley, but I honestly don't think it would've helped much with the whole situation.

 

[Rudabega]

Granted I only fly a 207 but my agents can count on me and I can count on them. When a bad guy is needed I know that is my job because it is my airplane, be firm and it always works out.

I have kicked many people off flights for various reasons and they are never going to be happy about it, just brush it off and continue with your day.

Verbal abuse is still abuse, next time back up your crew.

+1 for Cargo

 

[grnclvrs]

I'm probably in the minority here but if you feel the need to go back there you should already have called the police. Flight attendants are trained to deal with irate and abusive passengers and are given the phrases to use to calm them down. If these don't work, you may be viewed as a threat to the passenger and escalate the situation. Call the police, it's their job. Then go and tell the F/A that you called them and ask them to go to the galley until the passenger deplanes. You should not engage the irate passenger.

 

[Qgar]

How pleasant do you think it is for the compliant passengers to have to suffer through a passenger tirade, complete with profanity hurled at a crewmember (especially if they have small children)? How confident in the pilots do you think they are when they can clearly see that fellow crewmembers are not going to the aid of another crewmember who's being verbally (and possibly will be physically) assaulted?
Just food for thought. Unfortunate situations such as this one need to be nipped in the bud before anything escalates. I think it's pretty sad that another passenger might have to step in to assist a crewmember in trouble while a pilot who's supposedly in charge sits in the front watching the situation unfold. Sorry to those of you who feel otherwise, but it's the nature of the job. When you're a member of a crew, you all need to stick together and present a united front. In case any of you are wondering, I ALWAYS stuck up for my pilots/FAs and didn't tolerate any nasty remarks about them.