Law school

ufgators

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

I'm a First Officer at a regional airline and I'm hoping to get advice from any lawyers on here about possibly pursuing a career as a Lawyer.

I got a BA in Political Science from a large non aviation university but didn't have the greatest GPA. I've always had an interest in law but also aviation so when I graduated college I did the Pilot thing and that's where I'm at now. My question is if I were to seriously think about going to Law school, should I first take the LSAT and see how I do on it before I really get serious about getting into law? Also is it feasible to go to Law school part time or is it pretty much a full time endeavor? I've read that Aviation Law is a small field but would my prior experience as a Pilot at an airline (ATP, Type ratings, flight hours) help in getting a job at a firm that practices aviation law?

Thanks
 
Go do homework on the cost of legal education vs starting salaries and then come back to us.

There are virtually no firms who entirely practice aviation law. Instead, it might be 30% of one guy's load.
 
Hi Hook, thanks for the response

I realize that there are few opportunities in aviation law but I'm in no means only interested in pursuing that area of law.

As to your first sentence about " do homework on the cost of legal education vs. starting salary..." I in fact have done that homework... I was fortunate enough to do my flight training cheap but ask those guys who owe $900 /month in flight training loans while making less than $1800/ month that first year and then get back to me.

It's funny, just substitute "legal education" with "flight training" and it is the same thing a lot of Pilots say to new guys/gals when asked about getting into this industry.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really grateful I get the opportunity to do what I do. Heck, I joined JC even before I had a PPL.
 
but ask those guys who owe $900 /month in flight training loans while making less than $1800/ month that first year

The economics is about the same. At least junior FOs have unions and federal work rules to prevent long hours. Junior associates get paid about the same as junior FOs, but are expected to be billing 400 hours a month... and that's if they get a job. Unemployment rates out of law school are insane. Work that used to be done by junior associates is either offshored or automated. The profession is in absolute shambles.

Not to say that a JD isn't valuable... It can be. A guy with a JD and a MBA can be an expert M&A deal-maker. A guy with an engineering background and a JD can be a patent attorney or intellectual property specialist. Those with union rep experience and a JD can be labor negotiators. My view is that a guy with a JD from a mid-tier school and no other background is going to have a tough road.

There was a pretty good discussion on flying vs law school here:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/crossroads-law-school-vs-flying-career.208432/
 
Ok, here is the way I see it as someone who has practiced Law for more years than I want to admit and am also a pilot. I chose law school while working in law enforcement. Actually took the LSAT on a bet. I have never regretted my decision even though my heart is in aviation. Being an attorney has allowed me to provide for my family, be home at night and enjoy flying. Now the facts.

1. Law school isn't cheap but the return on investment is much better than aviation;

2. A law degree opens many doors outside of practicing law;

3. There are many jobs for new attorneys beginning with starting as a new prosecutor in a local District Attorney's office with starting pay around 40k with benefits (in Texas). Career prosecutors can top out over 100k in the bigger cities with great retirement;

4. Every city, state and federal agency has lawyers and there are always vacancies;

5. Law firms from big to small hire each year in the spring to fill associate positions. Those firms range from small criminal defense and civil firms who hire with a small salary and an "eat what you kill" bonus system to the big corporate (deep rug firm) who hire top of the class at 70k and up;

6. You can hang you own shingle and take everything that comes in the door as well as get on the criminal courts appointment list and do ok if you have a decent work ethic;

7. There are law schools that have night classes but the majority don't and some do not allow any outside work during the first year because of the amount of study required. I saw my wife each week on Sunday morning for breakfast. The rest of the time I was studying. This is only for the first year. After that it becomes more normal;

8. There is some opportunities to practice aviation law but outside of working for the FAA there aren't many full time aviation law jobs. I am a panel attorney for AOPA and do get some cases but it couldn't support a full time practice;

9. Finally, and this will become more important as you get older, I control my life. I don't have to worry about furloughs and layoffs and I have a Law License that allows me to make a living that no one but me can take away from me. If I don't like where I am working or circumstances change or I move to another area, my license goes with me and I can make a living. I may have to work a little harder at first to get established but I control that and not some bean counter or shareholder;

The first toy I ever remember getting was an airplane and I have loved flying all my life but I could have never provided the quality of life for my family and myself that I have been able to with a law degree. There is no one right or wrong decision here, it is a personal decision each of us must make and if it is what you really want to do, then it will be the right decision.

Just my humble opinion
 
I got furloughed from a regional, went to law school, and came back to a regional with a crap eating grin on my face. I graduated from law school and now I'm studying for the bar (again) while on reserve.

Reference the other thread, PM if you'd like further commentary.
 
Lots of good advice. I think the bottom line is "do what you love." I hold an ATP/CFI and have more than 13,000 hours. I've spent 40 years in the industry (20 years as a DPE and I have owned multiple aviation businesses). Today I practice law and I love it. I am able to combine my aviation and business experience with my law practice. But, aviation only makes up about 15% of my practice. And take it from someone who has been on both sides of the fence, practicing law is a lot more work than flying airplanes. So, I would advise against a legal career unless you can "love it" independent of an aviation law component.
 
I've never met a lawyer who planned on being a lawyer forever, with the exception of perhaps @PilotDefenseAttorney . That includes my wife, who enjoys the intrinsic rewards that come with practicing immigration law, but is pretty indifferent to being an attorney.
 
An atp might be in interesting topic to discuss while on an interview, but unless you hold yourself out as an expert witness, I don't think it would be that important. Getting a job is about how much revenue you can bring in. My first job out of school was at a large firm and it boiled down to how much I can bring in on my own and how many billable hours I can generate. The profession has changed and not for the better. Read the other threads.
 
Just graduated this past May and passed the bar in July. Actually just got my first permanent legal job today, start Monday.

It is actually a good time to go to law school as schools are lowering tuition, giving more scholarships than ever. A GPA and LSAT that used to get you into a top 20-30 school can now get you into a top 10-15 school. Why is the reason why you would need to think long and hard about it. There are not that many jobs out there. It is that simple. If you get into a good school, and then do well in that school you have a very good shot of getting a good job. But that is a lot of maybes.

As for aviation law I only know of one law firm in South Florida that does only aviation law. One of the partners is John Travolta's CP and his 707 captain. They are doing well but they really found themselves in a perfect niche market. A few others firms in South Florida do a very good amount of aviation work but South Florida is a huge aviation market compared to most areas of the country.

As for what you should do. That all depends, the first thing you do is take the LSAT, don't do great, take it again. The better the LSAT the better the school and/or scholarship. Unless you are former military or have some deep connection to the school all the law school cares about is your GPA and LSAT. LSAT is the most important thing. So there is no reason not to take it.

As for part time law school. Some schools have night programs that usually take 4 years instead of 3. They are not really part-time though. There is absolutely no way you could fly and go to law school.

There are a lot of positives and negatives about going to law school. You have to really want to become a lawyer IMO to do it. Now if you can go to school for little money with some type of scholarship or something, that changes the way I view it though.

Unless you have a true passion for law the blunt truth is unless you are going to law school for free you better get into a good school or at the very least a good school for the region you live in.

The economics is about the same. At least junior FOs have unions and federal work rules to prevent long hours. Junior associates get paid about the same as junior FOs, but are expected to be billing 400 hours a month... and that's if they get a job. Unemployment rates out of law school are insane. Work that used to be done by junior associates is either offshored or automated. The profession is in absolute shambles.
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You are right about the rates.Especially from schools outside of the top 50 rank. And the associate work, such as doc review, which some gets off shored but if the firms/company want decent work the review stays in the U.S. to outsourcing companies. The only schools that really can guarantee you a job are in the top 14-20. But if you get the job they are making plenty more than a junior FO. The lowest wage I have seen is $40k and that is typically for state government jobs that give you great experience or at very small firms. The starting salary for my classmates tend to be in the $56k-$64k range while large firms will be higher than that.

Ok, here is the way I see it as someone who has practiced Law for more years than I want to admit and am also a pilot. I chose law school while working in law enforcement. Actually took the LSAT on a bet. I have never regretted my decision even though my heart is in aviation. Being an attorney has allowed me to provide for my family, be home at night and enjoy flying. Now the facts.

2. A law degree opens many doors outside of practicing law;

3. There are many jobs for new attorneys beginning with starting as a new prosecutor in a local District Attorney's office with starting pay around 40k with benefits (in Texas). Career prosecutors can top out over 100k in the bigger cities with great retirement;

4. Every city, state and federal agency has lawyers and there are always vacancies;

5. Law firms from big to small hire each year in the spring to fill associate positions. Those firms range from small criminal defense and civil firms who hire with a small salary and an "eat what you kill" bonus system to the big corporate (deep rug firm) who hire top of the class at 70k and up;

Just my humble opinion
From someone who just was recently licensed to practice law and graduated from the the top school in my 8 million + region with top 40% grades it was still not easy for me to find a job. Law degrees open doors after you have practiced law for a while or already have experience in something else. Fresh out of law school with not much else but a BA and JD law school opens one door and that is to become a lawyer. Government jobs are uber competitive even for $40k pay. Federal government jobs are given to students from the top schools or with top 10% grades, or sometimes 2 year interns. I know one guy in my class of 400 who got a federal government attorney job, (not a clerk job) he had to move to the border of Texas and Mexico.

As for 3. There are no where near "many jobs" many markets are saturated with attorneys. Law school admissions have finally declined but there are still more graduates than jobs. Law firms big and small do hire every year and there are always openings but there are more lawyers than openings. The majority of openings typically require 2-4 years experience.
 
As for part time law school. Some schools have night programs that usually take 4 years instead of 3. They are not really part-time though. There is absolutely no way you could fly and go to law school.

I'm here to tell you that you CAN fly and go to law school at the same time. I did two semesters part time while flying. I bid four day trips, Friday through Monday, took classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and generally spent most Wednesday's sleeping. It's PAINFUL, but it's doable.

If you were to do 8 credit hours per regular semester, and 4 during the summer, it'd take 5 years to graduate. The ABA max is 6.

I WOULD NOT recommend it, but it is POSSIBLE.
 
I know two guys who went to law school while flying. One was a NWA pilot who now works for ALPA, and the other is a SWA pilot who went to law school while bidding stand-ups when he worked at ASA. I hear that it's painful, especially the first year, but not impossible.
 
I'm here to tell you that you CAN fly and go to law school at the same time. I did two semesters part time while flying. I bid four day trips, Friday through Monday, took classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and generally spent most Wednesday's sleeping. It's PAINFUL, but it's doable.

If you were to do 8 credit hours per regular semester, and 4 during the summer, it'd take 5 years to graduate. The ABA max is 6.

I WOULD NOT recommend it, but it is POSSIBLE.
What happens if you did not get your bid? I guess Friday-Monday where not the most popular trips?

If the OP is confident he could work out this schedule sure. At the same time I don't know how the part-time evening programs work but my first year I did not pick my schedule the school did for me.
 
What happens if you did not get your bid? I guess Friday-Monday where not the most popular trips?

If the OP is confident he could work out this schedule sure. At the same time I don't know how the part-time evening programs work but my first year I did not pick my schedule the school did for me.

Correct. Additionally, the airline I was at had a trading window that allowed me to modify my schedule. Commonly, I'd drop down to minimum credit (60 hours of flying) and try to take a weekend off of flying once per month. This wasn't always possible, but I did it when I could to give myself some breathing room.

More importantly, my school was dedicated to helping me finish the program while working. I was up front with them about what I needed to do in order to finish school, and they were proactive in helping me make the schedule work.

The airline, on the other hand, didn't care. If they needed to junior man me into days off, they'd do it without a second thought. Thankfully, this was never an issue, though there were a few days when I took a 6:00 a.m. flight back home from Newark on Tuesday morning after an uncommutable trip, drove into the law school, changed out of my uniform in the parking lot, and was in a 10:00 a.m. class.

Like I said, I wouldn't recommend it, but it's possible.

Oh and there was also an FO in my base going to medical school, but she was the #1 FO in base, and was also going to medical school in base. So she was able to do day trips on days when she didn't have class, and then drop the remainder of her schedule. She also had the added benefit of not having to worry about commuting, which is something I had to factor into my trip selection.

EDIT: I should also add, I intentionally bid the most unproductive trips I could find. 40 hour overnights were my thing, and they let me write papers and study for classes while on the road. I basically was able to get all my studying done between my commute, sits and unproductive overnights. There were some things I couldn't do though; I had to resign an offer to moot court halfway through my 2L year because I went back to work, and I was unable to do any internships after my 1L year. I guess in theory I could have tried to gin up an externship with ALPA, and combine the union work I was doing into a few credit hours, but I never bothered.
 
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