Nick
Well-Known Member
Correct.
Kirby wants scope relief and United
- Thread starter Zapphod Beblebrox
- Start date
Correct.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
That's a very good point. My best guess is management wanted the 50 seaters gone now rather than x years from now when the contract runs out and more large RJs would have gave them something to trade 50 seaters with. I understand Kirby didn't change anything from the MTA/MOU scope. It looks that scope has no "Scope Choke" type language as Regional airframes have increased while Mainline has decreased. It's just ironic how Kirby moves to UAL and starts asking for changes to scope after delaying/cancelling a significant amount of NBs.
Folks being afraid of the M88 is definitely responsible for the silly fast under 6 months upgrades. On the other hand, there are upgrades times faster than most regionals on some very very easy equipment. Less than 2 year upgrade on the 717 and A320, and less than 3 years on the 737. I never would have imagined upgrades on those fleets getting so quick and really can't figure out why either, especially the 320
Nick
Well-Known Member
Mid-range 777 F/O
$226/hr
18 days off a month
Schedule control
Secluded bunk with 3-5 hour breaks to ease the pain of a whacky schedule
Or with a 13% raise . . .
99% 320 CA
$256/hr
13 days off a month
Working 80% of weekends and almost all holidays, for the next two years minimum
Coverage days
No say in 05:00 reports or 23:45 releases
In NYC, covering three airports
Factoring in an occasional IOE trip buy for the 777 F/O and/or a greenslip or two throughout the year, the captain position could easily be a paycut.
Obviously that's one extreme to the other. NYC isn't the same reserve as DTW/ATL. And an F/O on the 330/764/7ER has more of an hourly wage disparity.
But still. When one surpasses $200K a year, I guess it comes down to: is more money going to balance out the additional 50-60 workdays per year that it will take to claim it? That's a whole block of ~5 days each month.
All depends on one's own situation.
.
mastermags
Well-Known Member *giggity*
Yes but what is the seniority number of a midrange 777 FO?
Nick
Well-Known Member
That's a good point; they wouldn't be sliding in at the bottom. Still though, the fact remains that different people reach it at different income levels, but there is a point at which more money is simply not worth any hit in QOL and schedule control.
For a single person in their 30s, despite the 'time value of money', there may not be much of a discernable difference between $170K and $220K.
They are both well above what they would need to live comfortably.
For someone in, say, their 50s and a spouse with a good income, the scenario might be just the same.
If the mid-range 777 F/O type can bring in $203,000 on min guarantee, let alone working the system here and there, more money may not do them any good. Particularly as they'll be sliding up through the tax brackets as they lose a few days off each month.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
You bring up a good point with the 777 FO QOL, but even LAX 777 fell under 3 years. Truly unprecedented times. Kit Darby is finally popping a bottle of champagne.
Dan208B
Well-Known Member
I see where your coming from here and I agree we need to work on the narrowbodies. However I just want to point out Delta has 86 widebodies larger than the 767 on property right now and United has 141. Something to be said for the long term career and not just quick upgrades. On that note we're all envious of the current upgrade opportunities over there and hoping things improve in that regard here. Retirements timing plays a large factor too. As a Seattle guy the JV stuff on your end hits close to home. I'd be pretty upset to lose my LHR trips to another airline if I was SEA based.
Nick
Well-Known Member
I know one of the ones in that junior LAX777B group. He'll commute in from another base for it. I think there is a certain chunk of people that just want to try something completely different from their past flying, and aren't picky with days off. The opportunity is now there, albeit at the bottom of the category. But when the worst trip is a 28hr commutable 4-day...
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
I see what you keep getting at. The senior 777 guys didnt have the same opportunity we have now unfortunately, for them it doesn't make sense to bid these positions, yet. While us junior pukes need to take them if we want to make that much money as we don't have the abilities seniority wise that the senior WB guys have.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Keep it up and your are gonna get me triggered
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
Meh. I'm a SEA guy and not happy about VA but I'd still rather be here than UAL. Nothing says your widebodies are safe, we are making way more money and our staffing is better where we have close to the same Captains In widebody positions (2 Captains on over 12 hour flights) vs your 1 Captain (I could be wrong). Now we have jr widebody FOs and way junior Captains. I want 141 777s but I wouldn't leave here to go to United to get that.
To add even with that loss of LHR we just added 60 FOs and 30 CAs to the category that lost that flight...
mastermags
Well-Known Member *giggity*
Wasnt the loss of SEA-LHR with the addition of PDX-LHR?
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
Yes but i believe it's not just SEA crews flying it could be wrong.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
I don't think he was suggesting you leave DL for UA.
Dan208B
Well-Known Member
Yep not at all. Just that there are other viewpoints out there regarding how the big 3 stack up. I wouldn't leave Delta either if I was you.
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
Agreed, I know he wasn't. I was just pointing out everyone always brings up the widebodies, same as fedex's pension. Let's be honest anyone at any of the big 3 will be just fine.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
A few things probably... American doesn't have the greatest reserve rules as compared to Delta (and United) so that tends to keep people out of bad category seniority if they can avoid it. Also, US Air (and now American) structured their pay so a senior FO seat with good QOL gives you similar pay as a junior captain with poor quality of life. Finally, I think a lot of regional guys were abused on reserve for so many years that they avoid it just by habit. Delta took way more military guys in the last few years than the other carriers so it's possible that the culture of avoiding reserve isn't as pervasive there.
Dan208B
Well-Known Member
Really it's that simple. Anyone at any of them is very well off and it will all be ok haha.
Our reserve system largely goes fairly senior depending on base and category. Whenever I had reserve in DTW, during a busy month, I was in Detroit for two or three days and might fly. Or. Not. 12 hour call up on long call, two hours (and oh boy, here comes a thread burner if some particular people read this) for short call.
If you live in DTW and are lazy, RSV is the only way to go.
It's not punative.
If you live in DTW and are lazy, RSV is the only way to go.
It's not punative.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Ditto. Reserve at Delta is real easy and laid back, with the only exception being short call if you commute. At least in NYC on the 717, a conversion to SC 90% of the time means you get to commute up to sit around and do nothing. Thankfully the yellowslip system has been a great tool to line you up to fly instead of sit SC.
