Kirby wants scope relief and United

Kirby tried to pull this nonsense at AA/US during the JCBA negotiations back in 14. His argument was that relaxing the 76 seat limit to 81 was good for mainline bc it meant more feed. They then quickly retracted the ask.

I'm convinced it was just a distraction and something he could say "hey look we took back our scope ask so take these concessions instead!" to.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
It's my understanding that the requirements of regional scope, limits the total fleet size of a regional to 450 aircraft. Right now SKW is at 400. 50 aircraft would be a huge increase. I don't think it would happen. It would be possible?


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It's 450 aircraft total at United express. Not just company specific. I'm pretty sure United is at the limit.
 
DE727UPS said:
You have to make a decision based on your best guess at the time. The industry is a crap shoot. For every Zap there is a guy that left Pan Am or TWA before the end. You can't say those guys should have stayed.
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It is a massive crap shoot and we don't learn from history.

It's boom and bust. Which makes me extraordinarily nervous when the NKOTB talk like this boom period isn't going to be followed by a correction. It always has.

Today's 18-month captain is tomorrow's "I gotta sell a boat and my wife is leaving me for a tax attorney." It has happened before and it will happen again.
 
Derg said:
It is a massive crap shoot and we don't learn from history.

It's boom and bust. Which makes me extraordinarily nervous when the NKOTB talk like this boom period isn't going to be followed by a correction. It always has.

Today's 18-month captain is tomorrow's "I gotta sell a boat and my wife is leaving me for a tax attorney." It has happened before and it will happen again.
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And, "Ah don't want any of 'em little airplanes!"
 
Autothrust Blue said:
And, "Ah don't want any of 'em little airplanes!"
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BS. We never said that. On the contrary we ripped the cover off of a Comair contract, slid it across the table and said, "here! We want the jobs."

Not surprisingly, management declined. Why? Because the cost was never their objective. The whipsaw was.


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The good news is that with the newer regional jets about to hit the market, a good portion of the pilot group at majors with a negative opinion of giving away scope and a positive economic cycle - we just might be able to put the regional jet genie back in the bottle


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In my opinion, what the regionals have done to our careers is probably the biggest driver in the hiring difficulties that the low/middle tier carriers are having.

Having to build a considerable amount of time before being hired is nothing new. Rewind 15 years ago and 1500 hours to work at a regional would actually be considered low time.

The real reason nobody is learning to fly anymore is because for the last 15 years the investment hasn't been worth the payout.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
In my opinion, what the regionals have done to our careers is probably the biggest driver in the hiring difficulties that the low/middle tier carriers are having.

Having to build a considerable amount of time before being hired is nothing new. Rewind 15 years ago and 1500 hours to work at a regional would actually be considered low time.

The real reason nobody is learning to fly anymore is because for the last 15 years the investment hasn't been worth the payout.
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No, the real reason is because it is astronomically expensive and the financing options aren't there. Remember back in the old days when people actually paid the regionals to come work there and for a lot less money than they make now. People have no problem taking on debt as long as you offer it to them.
 
mastermags said:
No, the real reason is because it is astronomically expensive and the financing options aren't there. Remember back in the old days when people actually paid the regionals to come work there and for a lot less money than they make now. People have no problem taking on debt as long as you offer it to them.
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Just like Vegas. "I'll pay this off in no time!"


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mastermags said:
No, the real reason is because it is astronomically expensive and the financing options aren't there. Remember back in the old days when people actually paid the regionals to come work there and for a lot less money than they make now. People have no problem taking on debt as long as you offer it to them.
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Because the banks know the return on investment isn't there.
 
Probably true. A lot of people remember the $10,000 pay to play schemes from FSI and Comair... but they may not remember the big money players. Kiwi Air and Valujet, both requiring $50,000 "investments" to be hired. (I may be misremembering the amount, but it was high)

EITHER WAY -- it is worth mentioning that even at the pinnacle of the pay to play era, hiring minimums for the 19 seat turboprops were in the 1500TT/500ME ballpark.


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Cptnchia said:
All I know is that this has already been tried at Delta and AA, being shot down at both. UAL is the last one to try it at. They best not roll over. @Seggy ?
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ian said:
except, you'd vote yes for it
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Kirby's offer is akin to Delta cancelling/delaying the 717s then asking for more RJs. It's a complete reversal of Scope Choke that has been extremely effective at Delta and has led to unprecedented movement which has yet to be replicated at AA or UAL even with those carriers having more retirements than Delta.

As far as @ian

I voted Yes to a contract that failed 35-65 and admit my vote was wrong. You voted No to a contract that passed 82-19 and with all the good that's happening you're still grumpy. At least your bidding strategy is getting better(So I've heard)
 
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Trip7 said:
Kirby's offer is akin to Delta cancelling/delaying the 717s then asking for more RJs. It's a complete reversal of Scope Choke that has been extremely effective at Delta and has led to unprecedented movement which has yet to be replicated at AA or UAL even with those carriers having more retirements than Delta.

As far as @ian

I voted Yes to a contract that failed 35-65 and admit my vote was wrong. You voted No to a contract that passed 82-19 and with all the good that's happening you're still grumpy. At least your bidding strategy is getting better(So I've heard)
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ask anyone I've flown with I'm not grumpy. That doesn't change the fact that you were okay with the scope gives in TA2 that were proposed with the AIPs that thankfully were changed.

Oh, and I didn't vote no on TA2.......
 
ian said:
ask anyone I've flown with I'm not grumpy. That doesn't change the fact that you were okay with the scope gives in TA2 that were proposed with the AIPs that thankfully were changed.

Oh, and I didn't vote no on TA2.......
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If you think the significant reduction of DCI proposed was a give then you must the C2012 scope changes was a give too right?
 
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