Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's?

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I know you're just stating your opinion, but you have zero idea what you're talking about. The climate of the regional industry is the way it is because it's the bottom of the barrel for pilots that want to make it to the bigs. Yeah it's b/s that they get paid crap, but blame the company/ climate of the industry. If ur a pilot trying to make it to the top, you wouldn't throw it all away for some walk off. It's unfortunate things are the way they are, but it is what it is. Things will get better, they can't get any worse. The regionals will be screwed in a few years when the old guys retire and there are no new young guys to fill the void.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his opinion though, as it brings up an interesting hypothetical that has come up a few times, yet no one has really answered....if anyone even knows the answer. Purely what if.....a large organized, technically illegal, walkout occurred?

Would Obama order the pilots back to work?

If they didn't, would he have the FBI arrest all of them who are out and send them to Guantanamo Bay? I'd hope not, as pro-union of a politician as he is (at least Reagan was understandable as he wasn't union friendly and that was a known-known about him).

Seriously, what could anyone do....company or government?

Airlines going to fire their entire seniority lists wholesale? And replace them with who in any sort of short-term period? Again, going back to the 1981 PATCO strike; Reagan had military ATC personnel fill the voids at major airports only, reservations system for ATC went into effect, delays for non-121 ops for IFR, etc. What would happen here? Obama ordering USAF/USN/USMC pilots to go fly RJs/ATRs/737s etc, and backfill? There's not enough of them to fly their own planes as-is. I'm being facetious I know, but still being somewhat serious.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

2nd, the pilots making 19k a yr are 1st yr pilots representing a very small percentage of each airline's pilot groups. It would be a waste of negotiating capital to fiercely address the topic during negotiations when such a small amount of pilots are affected. With hiring being shut down for almost a yr now I don't think there are many left on 1st yr pay industry wide.

So you're saying throw the new guys under the bus in favor of the majority? A majority of the pilots aren't on reserve, either, but that's no excuse to have crappy reserve rules at an airline. I can already tell the contract we're working under right now was negotiated by line holders that hadn't been on reserve for several years.

As for the "very small percentage," it depends on the environment at the time and the airline. When things were booming here, I'd say at least 30-40% of our pilot group was on probation. Due to turnover and upgrades, you had to go pretty far up the list on the FO side to find someone that had been here over a year.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I knew I didn't want to fly for the airlines. But after reading this, I DEFINATELY don't want to fly for the airlines. I have just come to this industry(just over a year, instructing at 2 schools to make it happen), from an industry where I organized a walk out. We all got $5 an hour more (Auto Mechs. at one dealership). And we didn't have a union. And because of that, two months later, I lost my job on a technicality. But I moved on to another dealership, and was still employed. What good is the union doing you fella's anyways if this is all they can muster up?

From an outsiders POV. What would happen, if every pilot in the US (or even half) decided to walk off the job one day. Is it against the law, sure. If there was 100,000 less pilots who showed up to work one day, and the flights didn't go, don't you think someone would listen? Whats the fine/punishment for a strike anyways?

Does anyone remember when Regan fired all the ATC guys for striking? Didn't most of them get back to work soon after? I don't know thats why I ask. I would rather see a mass walk-off than a 1st year FO make $19k a year. Mabey it would be beneficial to get someone like 60 mins. involved in this. Find a pilot who has a family to support, and is on WIC/Foodstamps/Wellfare. The airlines need more pressure put on them than what the unions have done so far.

Again, from an outsiders point of view, sounds like ALL airline pilots need to grow a backbone, and freakin stand up for themselves, AS A WHOLE. Sometimes, it has to get worse before it gets better. Imagine the dismay when the general public tuned into ^) mins., and saw that the guy who was flying them around at FL360 was only making $19k a year. You think they'd still trust you with their life?

Well, first the union leaders would all be tossed in jail.

It would be considered an illegal work action under the RLA (the piece of legislation that airline pilots work under).

The government would probably fine the unions into bankruptcy, therefor, no more unions.

And at this point, since the union is gone, I think the contract goes with it, so now you're working without ANY protection, and you'd better believe that they'd start firing people at will.

So...basically it's impossible to do what you're recommending. I mean good ideas, but it's not possible. Believe me, I wish it was.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

And at this point, since the union is gone, I think the contract goes with it, so now you're working without ANY protection, and you'd better believe that they'd start firing people at will.

Wait, that sounds terrifyingly like a...free market. What are they gonna do when all the unions and contracts are gone and the pilots still won't work for crap and suffer insane workrules? Hire someone off the street? It's a political game, they're always better played over-the-table for the little guy. It's the guys that have already "gotten theirs" who run the unions (for the most part) and are all too willing to throw everyone else under the bus to keep it. See: 1990s and RJs.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Wait, that sounds terrifyingly like a...free market. What are they gonna do when all the unions and contracts are gone and the pilots still won't work for crap and suffer insane workrules? Hire someone off the street? It's a political game, they're always better played over-the-table for the little guy. It's the guys that have already "gotten theirs" who run the unions (for the most part) and are all too willing to throw everyone else under the bus to keep it. See: 1990s and RJs.

Are you refering to the free market that hasn't existed in this country for 100, maybe even 150 years?

Here's how I see American capitalism today; the employer leverages their position as heavily as they possibly can, and I'll do the same. So today, we have a nice, peaceful, civil and lawful way to leverage our positions.

But if you want to really talk about leveraging your position in a true capitalistic society (I'm thinking Leviathan style freedom, just so you have a point of reference), then you wanna talk about a boss firing somebody without cause and finding a snub nose .38 in their face a few seconds later. In that world, and while it's a lawless world, actions have consequences.

Today, there are no consequences for the employers, only for the employees. If that continues, there will eventually be equality, but it'll come via a posse and your choice of high powered rifles.

History tells us that's happened before, and we can see through the last 200 some off years of American history that what we have today is most likely preferable. So with that, I'll keep my union, because I'm not too interested in having to research hand guns. I'm already too busy being worried about how premarital sex is going to ruin my marriage, and how the gays are going to show my wife amazing new ways to decorate our apartment.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Are you refering to the free market that hasn't existed in this country for 100, maybe even 150 years?

Here's how I see American capitalism today; the employer leverages their position as heavily as they possibly can, and I'll do the same. So today, we have a nice, peaceful, civil and lawful way to leverage our positions.

But if you want to really talk about leveraging your position in a true capitalistic society (I'm thinking Leviathan style freedom, just so you have a point of reference), then you wanna talk about a boss firing somebody without cause and finding a snub nose .38 in their face a few seconds later. In that world, and while it's a lawless world, actions have consequences.

Today, there are no consequences for the employers, only for the employees. If that continues, there will eventually be equality, but it'll come via a posse and your choice of high powered rifles.

History tells us that's happened before, and we can see through the last 200 some off years of American history that what we have today is most likely preferable. So with that, I'll keep my union, because I'm not too interested in having to research hand guns. I'm already too busy being worried about how premarital sex is going to ruin my marriage, and how the gays are going to show my wife amazing new ways to decorate our apartment.

As mshunter asked then, what would they do with a complete walkout? What could employer or govt truly do? Arrest everybody? Then what......there's still no one to fly the planes.

Talk about a serious act of civil disobedience that no one could really do a damn thing about.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

As mshunter asked then, what would they do with a complete walkout? What could employer or govt truly do? Arrest everybody? Then what......there's still no one to fly the planes.

Talk about a serious act of civil disobedience that no one could really do a damn thing about.

Again, arrest the union leaders and put them in jail. Fine the union out of existence and then you're kinda left with your you know what in your hand.

The RLA is incredibly restrictive in what airline unions are legally allowed to do.

 

[PGT]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Again, arrest the union leaders and put them in jail. Fine the union out of existence and then you're kinda left with your you know what in your hand.

The RLA is incredibly restrictive in what airline unions are legally allowed to do.

Unless the union proved they had nothing to do with it and did not encourage it. I think I remember something like this from Flying the Line vol. 1

 

[Trip7]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

So you're saying throw the new guys under the bus in favor of the majority? A majority of the pilots aren't on reserve, either, but that's no excuse to have crappy reserve rules at an airline. I can already tell the contract we're working under right now was negotiated by line holders that hadn't been on reserve for several years.

As for the "very small percentage," it depends on the environment at the time and the airline. When things were booming here, I'd say at least 30-40% of our pilot group was on probation. Due to turnover and upgrades, you had to go pretty far up the list on the FO side to find someone that had been here over a year.

I a perfect world the work rules would be great for all levels of seniority. But realistically that's not going to happen. The majority will always work a contract in their favor. Besides, with the years of negotiating that goes on these days I don't think the MEC will get too caught up on reserve rules or 1st yr pay.

You're right about the "very small percentage" part. But do realize that your company started handing out bonuses and offering all kinds of incentives when the hiring boom was going on. Proves my point of supply and demand. We saw it once we'll see it again at the regional level in 4 yrs. 1st yr pay will be forced to come up in order to attract qualified pilots.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

We saw it once we'll see it again at the regional level in 4 yrs. 1st yr pay will be forced to come up in order to attract qualified pilots.

Or minimums will go down. Nothing new under the sun...

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Again, arrest the union leaders and put them in jail. Fine the union out of existence and then you're kinda left with your you know what in your hand.

The RLA is incredibly restrictive in what airline unions are legally allowed to do.

I hear you. But I don't think that would actually happen. It can't. With no one to replace the striking workers in any kind of short term way, even if the union leaders were put in jail, no one would fly the planes. The country can't afford that. Speaking from a truly civil disobedience POV (which I know you can appreciate John ), why the big "must follow the law" sentiment now, when the law is only working against you? Airline pilots probably hold more cards than they think....in a true sense. But ultimately, all that really seems to go on is pilots doing their best to screw each other and complain about each other's airlines/unions/"he's got it better than me!!", etc; hence no true unity. Just read any number of threads in this section of the forum alone.

When the time comes that people will go by their belief, rather than what some law says....that'll be the day when things truly "are that bad". Things are starting to go that way viv-s-vis the federal bailouts. Until then, until pilots are willing to take the ultimate step, it would seem to be business as usual at the airlnes. It may suck, but it doesn't seem to suck enough......yet.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

True unity is in the eye of the beholder.

Some will profess there will never be any sense of "true" unity for their own satisfaction. It's easy to do that when one lacks a vested interest in the debate.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

True unity is in the eye of the beholder.

Some will profess there will never be any sense of "true" unity for their own satisfaction. It's easy to do that when one lacks a vested interest in the debate.

Thats what I'm asking, though, in a roundabout way. What is defined as unity in this case? Is it subjective? Where/how does the various amount of infighting fit in, if at all? Sure, I'm throwing out a total hypothetical; but am asking a serious question in the process too to those in the know, yourself included.

 

[Seggy]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I hear you. But I don't think that would actually happen. It can't.

It did with the Allied Pilots Association and APA. A few years ago they were given a fine worth more than the union was worth because of an illegal job action.

They were able to save the union because of an increased due assessment AND they had to take a second mortgage out on their property. You really get nowhere without doing it the legal way.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

True unity comes in one simple sentence (IMHO).

A work group striving for the overall betterment of their profession, through the collective processes of bargaining for improved work rules, wages and quality of life enhancements.

It's as simple as that. If your work group is not working towards improving the profession, then there is no unity - much less true.

All this other nonsense you talk about (pilots bickering with each other, my union is better than yours, my plane is > yours) doesn't matter. They're red herrings to detract from the basic foundation of unity and improving our profession (or our little slice of it).

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

True unity comes in one simple sentence (IMHO).

A workgroup striving for the overall betterment of their profession, through the collective processes of bargaining for improve work rules, wages and benefit of life enhancements.

It's as simple as that. If your workgroup is not working towards improving the profession, then there is no true unity.

Those are fair answers, gents. Appreciate the insight.

 

[Seggy]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

At my airline, we have been through a TON of union training and legal briefs. They are quite adamant about doing it the legal way, unlike American which almost collapsed the union. I think the fine was $45.5 million dollars and the union was worth about $40 million dollars.

If you don't do it the legal way you really create more problems for yourself and the profession.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

At see jay see what have been through a TON of union training and legal briefs. They are quite adamant about doing it the legal way.

If you don't you really create more problems for yourself and the profession.

I hope you guys can improve conditions to your satisfaction or at least something close. And hopefully things are starting to be on the upswing. High time the pendulum began swinging the other way.

I was just throwing the extreme hypothetical out there to elicit some debate, and the responses have been rational and informative. Appreciated.

 

[jtrain609]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I hope you guys can improve conditions to your satisfaction or at least something close. And hopefully things are starting to be on the upswing. High time the pendulum began swinging the other way.

The real solution is to change the legislation that pilots negotiate under, that way pilots can change things lawfully in a much more efficient way. The RLA is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly restrictive. Lobbying for a new piece of legislation right now is probably the time to do it what with such a union friendly administration.

Enter the journey I'm about to take.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

The real solution is to change the legislation that pilots negotiate under, that way pilots can change things lawfully in a much more efficient way. The RLA is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly restrictive. Lobbying for a new piece of legislation right now is probably the time to do it what with such a union friendly administration.

Enter the journey I'm about to take.

A good journey to take. Would think that legislative change would've taken place under Clinton.....or has the drive to have it changed just not generated steam until post 9/11?

RLA does seem akin to those archaic-type laws you see on the books of states, where they don't seem to have realistic application in the modern day.