Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's?
- Thread starter ThatOtherDude
- Start date
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
No, but I had a post between Joilet's and your Umm post with a popcorn smiley that was from off the site.
Hmm. . .seems it was deleted by someone.
No, but I had a post between Joilet's and your Umm post with a popcorn smiley that was from off the site.
Hmm. . .seems it was deleted by someone.
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Well, ok. I'm not one to keep secrets but he's not an airline pilot, but has seen the professional side of civilian aviation as a freight pilot, the military side as an A-10 and F-117A pilot and studied Aeronautical Science at ERAU.
Well, ok. I'm not one to keep secrets but he's not an airline pilot, but has seen the professional side of civilian aviation as a freight pilot, the military side as an A-10 and F-117A pilot and studied Aeronautical Science at ERAU.
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Oh, just type
op: now, I installed one.
: pop : without the spaces.
No, but I had a post between Joilet's and your Umm post with a popcorn smiley that was from off the site.
Hmm. . .seems it was deleted by someone.
Oh, just type
op: now, I installed one.: pop : without the spaces.
joliet
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Yeah that's what I figured, he has no vested interest in the airlines.
Yeah that's what I figured, he has no vested interest in the airlines.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Nice! I love getting new smileys on JC!op:
/hijack
Oh, just type
: pop : without the spaces.
Nice! I love getting new smileys on JC!
op:/hijack
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Great, now we have one.
All because a post was removed.
op:
*giggle*
Great, now we have one.
All because a post was removed.op:*giggle*
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Nice! I love getting new smileys on JC!
/hijack
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
I have. Go on with functioning the way you have been then, and let me know how it's working out for you, or for surreal for that matter. Hows the industry doing overall? Your closed-mindedness isn't going to get you anywhere....but hey, if that's how you want to be, so be it. Stay bogged down in your world of nothingness and anger....it's no skin off of my hide. You guys have been in the aviation world how long, and surreal..you're how old? Yeah....
Just because I'm not in the regional airlines making beans for a living doesn't mean I haven't dealt with similar issues in life and in different types of employment. Unlike you, I happen to realize (and I'm sure most here do) that one side can't exist without the other in this game. Everyone that has your attitude on each side isn't doing the common interests any good. From those with the "burn it down" mentality on one side, to those with the "I can treat pilots like crap, because I can" on the other side; does no good for anyone.
Educate myself? I think thats something you need to go do my friend; educate yourself on the definition of insanity.....doing the same crap over and over and expecting a different result; talk about nonsense ideals. I'd give the same advice to the management side too. Or, you can sit where you are in life and stew about it. Your call.
Again, no skin off of my hide. Water's just fine where I'm at.
I have. Go on with functioning the way you have been then, and let me know how it's working out for you, or for surreal for that matter. Hows the industry doing overall? Your closed-mindedness isn't going to get you anywhere....but hey, if that's how you want to be, so be it. Stay bogged down in your world of nothingness and anger....it's no skin off of my hide. You guys have been in the aviation world how long, and surreal..you're how old? Yeah....
Just because I'm not in the regional airlines making beans for a living doesn't mean I haven't dealt with similar issues in life and in different types of employment. Unlike you, I happen to realize (and I'm sure most here do) that one side can't exist without the other in this game. Everyone that has your attitude on each side isn't doing the common interests any good. From those with the "burn it down" mentality on one side, to those with the "I can treat pilots like crap, because I can" on the other side; does no good for anyone.
Educate myself? I think thats something you need to go do my friend; educate yourself on the definition of insanity.....doing the same crap over and over and expecting a different result; talk about nonsense ideals. I'd give the same advice to the management side too. Or, you can sit where you are in life and stew about it. Your call.
Again, no skin off of my hide. Water's just fine where I'm at.
skydog
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Socal,
If it makes you feel good to call me anti-pilot, anti-labor, pro-management, whatever, then you go right ahead. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me; I'm happily out of this profession.
But none of that is going to change the basic truth of what I've repeatedly said: that as long as airlines are not making money, then there will not be any sustantial improvements in working conditions for pilots. Why would you expect that there would be? Airlines can't pay the bills they have now. They're dipping into their cash reserves to make the payroll and the payables. Their revenues aren't sufficient to sustain their cost structures. Why do you think we had all the bankruptices? They were trying to lower costs and bring them in line with their revenues. They're still trying to. So where exactly do you think the money for better pilot wages and working conditions is going to come from?
Time and time again, I have seen posts from people saying how pilots have to "fight" to improve wages and working conditons. My question is: fight whom? Management? They're not the "enemy." They're just the middle man. They take the money from the customer, and pass a portion of it along to you in the form of wages. The rest of it goes to pay the other bills. But the problem is, for several years now, they have not taken in enough money to pay the other bills. They're having to pay the bills out of their savings accounts (cash reserves). Why do you think just about every airline declared bankruptcy.
If there is an "enemy" (I don't believe that there is, but whatever, we'll go with it), it is the customer. Your wages are a direct reflection of what an airline customer is able and willing to pay. It doesn't matter what YOU think you're worth. It matters what the guy who is buying your product thinks. You may think you're worth 500K a year, and set your prices accordingly, but if the average customer can't afford the fare that supports that kind of salary, you're not going to get it, at least not very long.
Maybe someday you will realize that nothing operates in a vaccuum. Your actions, the actions of management, the buying habits of the customer (in short, the economy), are all inextricably interwoven. Nothing can be changed without affecting everything around it. You want to demand 300K salaries? Fine, but don't be surprised when no one is buying tickets on your airline.
What kills me about all this is that, throughout all of this bankruptcy nonsense, every single airline employee continued collecting a paycheck for the work they have done. Not one airline employee has gone unpaid. Airline profits or losses not withstanding, you took home a paycheck every two weeks. Contrast that with the owners and investors; people who put their money into the airline in the hopes of making a return on their investment. These people have not seen a payday in years, and yet you think you are suffering? There's a huge difference taking a pay cut, and losing your money.
But all that is beside the point. My point in responding to the original poster is that this is the way the airlines are. You can argue with it all you want to, but nothing is going to change because you are "fighting" management. It's only gonna change when someone figures out how to make money flying airplanes. In the meantime, you, the original poster, and everyone reading this has a choice: deal with things as they are, or find another way to make a living.
By the way, I was in the airline business for 13 years. scheduler, dispatcher, instructor, supervisor and, for my final seven years, pilot.
Socal,
If it makes you feel good to call me anti-pilot, anti-labor, pro-management, whatever, then you go right ahead. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me; I'm happily out of this profession.
But none of that is going to change the basic truth of what I've repeatedly said: that as long as airlines are not making money, then there will not be any sustantial improvements in working conditions for pilots. Why would you expect that there would be? Airlines can't pay the bills they have now. They're dipping into their cash reserves to make the payroll and the payables. Their revenues aren't sufficient to sustain their cost structures. Why do you think we had all the bankruptices? They were trying to lower costs and bring them in line with their revenues. They're still trying to. So where exactly do you think the money for better pilot wages and working conditions is going to come from?
Time and time again, I have seen posts from people saying how pilots have to "fight" to improve wages and working conditons. My question is: fight whom? Management? They're not the "enemy." They're just the middle man. They take the money from the customer, and pass a portion of it along to you in the form of wages. The rest of it goes to pay the other bills. But the problem is, for several years now, they have not taken in enough money to pay the other bills. They're having to pay the bills out of their savings accounts (cash reserves). Why do you think just about every airline declared bankruptcy.
If there is an "enemy" (I don't believe that there is, but whatever, we'll go with it), it is the customer. Your wages are a direct reflection of what an airline customer is able and willing to pay. It doesn't matter what YOU think you're worth. It matters what the guy who is buying your product thinks. You may think you're worth 500K a year, and set your prices accordingly, but if the average customer can't afford the fare that supports that kind of salary, you're not going to get it, at least not very long.
Maybe someday you will realize that nothing operates in a vaccuum. Your actions, the actions of management, the buying habits of the customer (in short, the economy), are all inextricably interwoven. Nothing can be changed without affecting everything around it. You want to demand 300K salaries? Fine, but don't be surprised when no one is buying tickets on your airline.
What kills me about all this is that, throughout all of this bankruptcy nonsense, every single airline employee continued collecting a paycheck for the work they have done. Not one airline employee has gone unpaid. Airline profits or losses not withstanding, you took home a paycheck every two weeks. Contrast that with the owners and investors; people who put their money into the airline in the hopes of making a return on their investment. These people have not seen a payday in years, and yet you think you are suffering? There's a huge difference taking a pay cut, and losing your money.
But all that is beside the point. My point in responding to the original poster is that this is the way the airlines are. You can argue with it all you want to, but nothing is going to change because you are "fighting" management. It's only gonna change when someone figures out how to make money flying airplanes. In the meantime, you, the original poster, and everyone reading this has a choice: deal with things as they are, or find another way to make a living.
By the way, I was in the airline business for 13 years. scheduler, dispatcher, instructor, supervisor and, for my final seven years, pilot.
skydog
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
One other thing, since we're talking about anti-pilot management. Let me share with you how "anti-pilot" Air Wisconsin's management was.
When United came to us and told us that they were nullifying our contract, and putting the flying were doing up for bid, they were able to do so by using the bankrupcty laws to their advantage. Our management could have done the same. But instead, they chose to approach the employee groups, including the pilots, present the case, and negotiate concessions. They successfully concluded those negotations, and were succesful in securing a winning bid to keep the United flying.
Then United came back at us, and asked for further concessions. We couldn't do it. Oh sure we could have placed the lowest bid, but if they had, Air Wisconsin would be nothing but a memory now. Instead, our management took the money they were due from United, and do you know what those greedy bastages did? They invested it in USAir, and got a flying contract; a flying contract that that kept 3000 people, including 700 pilots, employed. They could just as easily taken that 125 million and gone home, but instead, they kept the company going, and everyone employed. Now, do you want to tell the owners and investors that they don't have the right to make a reasonable return on their investment?
One other thing, since we're talking about anti-pilot management. Let me share with you how "anti-pilot" Air Wisconsin's management was.
When United came to us and told us that they were nullifying our contract, and putting the flying were doing up for bid, they were able to do so by using the bankrupcty laws to their advantage. Our management could have done the same. But instead, they chose to approach the employee groups, including the pilots, present the case, and negotiate concessions. They successfully concluded those negotations, and were succesful in securing a winning bid to keep the United flying.
Then United came back at us, and asked for further concessions. We couldn't do it. Oh sure we could have placed the lowest bid, but if they had, Air Wisconsin would be nothing but a memory now. Instead, our management took the money they were due from United, and do you know what those greedy bastages did? They invested it in USAir, and got a flying contract; a flying contract that that kept 3000 people, including 700 pilots, employed. They could just as easily taken that 125 million and gone home, but instead, they kept the company going, and everyone employed. Now, do you want to tell the owners and investors that they don't have the right to make a reasonable return on their investment?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Skydog don't forget AWAC management took the 2003 paycuts and kept some for themselves and passed on some to the UAL bid. Who knows that might be why we lost it. They're not completely innocent. But I agree they could've taken the $125 mil and gone home but they chose to invest in US Air, they netted an additional $300 mil for that IIRC.
However that investment was protected by assets so it wasn't a complete gamble.
But on the whole the company is one of the better ones out there (for now). It's just come under tremendous cost pressure from competitors in recent times, and managements hands are tied.
Skydog don't forget AWAC management took the 2003 paycuts and kept some for themselves and passed on some to the UAL bid. Who knows that might be why we lost it. They're not completely innocent. But I agree they could've taken the $125 mil and gone home but they chose to invest in US Air, they netted an additional $300 mil for that IIRC.
However that investment was protected by assets so it wasn't a complete gamble.
But on the whole the company is one of the better ones out there (for now). It's just come under tremendous cost pressure from competitors in recent times, and managements hands are tied.
joliet
New Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Spot on analysis.
This part: "Your actions, the actions of management, the buying habits of the customer (in short, the economy), are all inextricably interwoven. Nothing can be changed without affecting everything around it. "
...reminds me of how Southwest operates. Proof of concept.
Spot on analysis.
This part: "Your actions, the actions of management, the buying habits of the customer (in short, the economy), are all inextricably interwoven. Nothing can be changed without affecting everything around it. "
...reminds me of how Southwest operates. Proof of concept.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
Sure, that's wonderful.
But once again. . .right now you're not a management type.
You're a line pilot who will be used and abused and made to play the game their way until you either cross over and end up as a management pilot or you realize that you've been jacked around.
Say it won't happen til your blue in the face. But the collective power of a work group is there for the distinct reason of protecting the employees, not management.
Don't like it? Well, don't know what to say. . .it's not like people came into this game thinking that they wouldn't have to deal with unions and the collective bargaining which they bring. If it's something that people don't want to deal with, then seek out employment at the non-union shops. But don't moan and groan about some philosophical evils especially when you lack a vested interest (not necessarily you Trip7, but other members).
Sure, that's wonderful.
But once again. . .right now you're not a management type.
You're a line pilot who will be used and abused and made to play the game their way until you either cross over and end up as a management pilot or you realize that you've been jacked around.
Say it won't happen til your blue in the face. But the collective power of a work group is there for the distinct reason of protecting the employees, not management.
Don't like it? Well, don't know what to say. . .it's not like people came into this game thinking that they wouldn't have to deal with unions and the collective bargaining which they bring. If it's something that people don't want to deal with, then seek out employment at the non-union shops. But don't moan and groan about some philosophical evils especially when you lack a vested interest (not necessarily you Trip7, but other members).
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
I've said it before and I'll drop it here again - some of you have unrealistic expectations of UNIONS. Skydog's post was very much on the money. Unions are only going to get you so far. Some of you guys seriously need to step outside the "Union box" and take a look at the reality. Your union is not going to control how the business is run. They have their purpose and one in which I agree with, but seriously, pull your heads out of the sand and quit riding the "union will save us" bandwagon. It just proves how uneducated pilots are.
I've said it before and I'll drop it here again - some of you have unrealistic expectations of UNIONS. Skydog's post was very much on the money. Unions are only going to get you so far. Some of you guys seriously need to step outside the "Union box" and take a look at the reality. Your union is not going to control how the business is run. They have their purpose and one in which I agree with, but seriously, pull your heads out of the sand and quit riding the "union will save us" bandwagon. It just proves how uneducated pilots are.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's
I agree with most of what Skydog said, and unions won't "save us all." That being said, there's still room for improvement even if an airline is losing money. Curiously, management still seems to get bonuses even when airlines lose money. I know ours here do. We lost money last year, but they all got their "on-time" bonuses. Now, if the company was REALLY bleeding cash, there wouldn't be cash for those bonuses, IMO. The fact that without the crews and ground staff that actually DID the work, they wouldn't get the bonuses in the first place is just insulting. If the airline's losing money, I think any bonus money should go back into the airline, not management bonus checks. If the airline turns a profit, bonus away. The whole "retention of talent" thing rings hollow as well, esp with as many bankruptcies as we've seen. Why pay to retain a management team that isn't working right? Wouldn't it be more of a motivation to say "You'll get your bonus when things turn around?" I'm gonna use myself as an example, here. I have ZERO reason to push things to get out on-time. I don't get an on-time bonus. If I did, I'd be working my butt off to make sure every flight I operated got out on-time. As it is, with how I'm treated by my management here, I'm content to sit back and let the wheels fall off up to the point my passengers are gonna miss their connections. THEN, I start working on it, not b/c I give a damn about management, but b/c I actually care about the passengers. If the flight's 2 minutes late, the passengers will still make their connections, but it counts against the on-time bonus checks. If management were willing to share the wealth a bit more, I could probably find 2 minutes to shave off.
I agree with most of what Skydog said, and unions won't "save us all." That being said, there's still room for improvement even if an airline is losing money. Curiously, management still seems to get bonuses even when airlines lose money. I know ours here do. We lost money last year, but they all got their "on-time" bonuses. Now, if the company was REALLY bleeding cash, there wouldn't be cash for those bonuses, IMO. The fact that without the crews and ground staff that actually DID the work, they wouldn't get the bonuses in the first place is just insulting. If the airline's losing money, I think any bonus money should go back into the airline, not management bonus checks. If the airline turns a profit, bonus away. The whole "retention of talent" thing rings hollow as well, esp with as many bankruptcies as we've seen. Why pay to retain a management team that isn't working right? Wouldn't it be more of a motivation to say "You'll get your bonus when things turn around?" I'm gonna use myself as an example, here. I have ZERO reason to push things to get out on-time. I don't get an on-time bonus. If I did, I'd be working my butt off to make sure every flight I operated got out on-time. As it is, with how I'm treated by my management here, I'm content to sit back and let the wheels fall off up to the point my passengers are gonna miss their connections. THEN, I start working on it, not b/c I give a damn about management, but b/c I actually care about the passengers. If the flight's 2 minutes late, the passengers will still make their connections, but it counts against the on-time bonus checks. If management were willing to share the wealth a bit more, I could probably find 2 minutes to shave off.