Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's?

Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

kellwolf said:
I agree with most of what Skydog said, and unions won't "save us all." That being said, there's still room for improvement even if an airline is losing money. Curiously, management still seems to get bonuses even when airlines lose money. I know ours here do. We lost money last year, but they all got their "on-time" bonuses. Now, if the company was REALLY bleeding cash, there wouldn't be cash for those bonuses, IMO. The fact that without the crews and ground staff that actually DID the work, they wouldn't get the bonuses in the first place is just insulting. If the airline's losing money, I think any bonus money should go back into the airline, not management bonus checks. If the airline turns a profit, bonus away. The whole "retention of talent" thing rings hollow as well, esp with as many bankruptcies as we've seen. Why pay to retain a management team that isn't working right? Wouldn't it be more of a motivation to say "You'll get your bonus when things turn around?" I'm gonna use myself as an example, here. I have ZERO reason to push things to get out on-time. I don't get an on-time bonus. If I did, I'd be working my butt off to make sure every flight I operated got out on-time. As it is, with how I'm treated by my management here, I'm content to sit back and let the wheels fall off up to the point my passengers are gonna miss their connections. THEN, I start working on it, not b/c I give a damn about management, but b/c I actually care about the passengers. If the flight's 2 minutes late, the passengers will still make their connections, but it counts against the on-time bonus checks. If management were willing to share the wealth a bit more, I could probably find 2 minutes to shave off.
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Only problem I have with pilots getting on time bonus's is my fear they will rush. But with that said, if there was a way to incentivize (not a word) us getting in early then yee-haw.
I get in too big a rush anyhow. Most times I have to make a conscience effort to slow things down when we are getting close to pushback so I don't takeoff without a MEL time and initials from dispatch or something silly like that.
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Doug Taylor said:
One prong is that if you're at a regional and it blows, best to get involved and make it better because you never know how long the music is going to stay stopped. How many of us were jumping around "lesser" regionals to get to "better" regionals, the music stopped and now they're unhappy? Get involved, make it better because that may be "it" for a lot of us.
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Best thing said in this thread.
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Airdale said:
I've said it before and I'll drop it here again - some of you have unrealistic expectations of UNIONS. Skydog's post was very much on the money. Unions are only going to get you so far. Some of you guys seriously need to step outside the "Union box" and take a look at the reality. Your union is not going to control how the business is run. They have their purpose and one in which I agree with, but seriously, pull your heads out of the sand and quit riding the "union will save us" bandwagon. It just proves how uneducated pilots are.
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I personally, do not expect the union to run the business.

But, I do expect them to protect my interest. Not really sure how you can think that that means that some of us want them to run the business.

Just so it's perfectly clear. . .It's a unions task to protect the interest of it's members. Crystal?
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Seggy said:
Not true. The Delta MEC has a seat on the Board of Directors at Delta.
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So did the UAL pilots too.

There are some very talented people that also fly airplanes. The statistics show very very very very very few are talented business people as well.

RIP, Juan Trippe
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Agree with you there. The Delta MEC is being smart about it though, I think.
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

jynxyjoe said:
Only problem I have with pilots getting on time bonus's is my fear they will rush. But with that said, if there was a way to incentivize (not a word) us getting in early then yee-haw.
I get in too big a rush anyhow. Most times I have to make a conscience effort to slow things down when we are getting close to pushback so I don't takeoff without a MEL time and initials from dispatch or something silly like that.
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There's actually quite a few airlines out there that get on-time bonuses for pilots. Our FAs get them. Actually, the pilots are pretty much the only employee group that DOESN'T get an on-time bonus. I do share your concern, though. All the more reason that flight crews have to be professional and do the job right.
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

kellwolf said:
There's actually quite a few airlines out there that get on-time bonuses for pilots. Our FAs get them. Actually, the pilots are pretty much the only employee group that DOESN'T get an on-time bonus. I do share your concern, though. All the more reason that flight crews have to be professional and do the job right.
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Agreed
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Last year if we made the performance metrics specified by our code share partners the people who had perfect attendance that month would split $50,000 bonus. Like, if we met United numbers all the pilots on that flew on the United side (not US Airways) would split 50k if they had perfect attendance. Due to insufficient staffing brought on by insane attrition we hardly ever reached those numbers.

When we started getting adequetely staffed they stopped paying the bonus. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

ThatOtherDude said:
Wow. What regional do you work for that doesn't bottom feed? I knew the pay scale and knew the forecast for growth. That's why I made the decision I made.

Airlines are in it for the money and to please the stockholders. They'd be stupid to pays us anymore when they don't have to. The law is on their side. We can't strike and when it comes to negotiations we're always in the hands of the arbitrators. No matter what airline you work for in the United States of America, you are not getting a fair deal. Not because people aren't willing to say "screw this, let's strike" but because the law says we can't.

And it's not just the regionals. The majors are in the same boat, they just complain less because they make more. We need the law amended. We need to be able to walk out and refuse to fly. I wrote my Congressman and try to educate everyone I can. That's all I can do short of getting a bullhorn and rallying in the terminal by myself.

It's real easy to flame the regional guys but we're all in this together. Just because you may work for an airline that pays you a few dollars more, what's there to stop them from giving you a pay cut. I.E. Delta, 2005 & US Air
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Well, I understand that how striking is against the law, but i m wondering, what if u strike anyway...so u broke the law, so what? what r they gonna do? Put u in jail? If u r in jail then u cannot fly anyway, so that will achieve the same end result as striking...the management will have to cut flight anyway....

If u cannot strike, how about a massive resignation? That will send a message too, sure they can hire new people, but it will need time to train them and all, it will sure disrupt things.
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

jowong1 said:
Well, I understand that how striking is against the law, but i m wondering, what if u strike anyway...so u broke the law, so what? what r they gonna do? Put u in jail? If u r in jail then u cannot fly anyway, so that will achieve the same end result as striking...the management will have to cut flight anyway....

If u cannot strike, how about a massive resignation? That will send a message too, sure they can hire new people, but it will need time to train them and all, it will sure disrupt things.
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"are"

and

"you"

Just two more letters each... :)
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

jowong1 said:
Well, I understand that how striking is against the law, but i m wondering, what if u strike anyway...so u broke the law, so what? what r they gonna do? Put u in jail? If u r in jail then u cannot fly anyway, so that will achieve the same end result as striking...the management will have to cut flight anyway....

If u cannot strike, how about a massive resignation? That will send a message too, sure they can hire new people, but it will need time to train them and all, it will sure disrupt things.
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Ya know, I'd rather follow the legal channels. Even if I only get 10 days off a month, at least I'm in bed next to my wife rather than Bubba in a jail cell......
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

kellwolf said:
Ya know, I'd rather follow the legal channels. Even if I only get 10 days off a month, at least I'm in bed next to my wife rather than Bubba in a jail cell......
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Now does everyone get my point? No one wants to sacrifice anything even for their own good!
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

jowong1 said:
Now does everyone get my point? No one wants to sacrifice anything even for their own good!
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What good is sacrificing for your own good when you won't even get to bear the fruits of the labor? In this situation, wouldn't the people going to prison be sacrificing for everyone else's own good?

I agree things need to change, but going off the reservation on some kind of wildcat strike is gonna do nothing but get union leaders tossed in jail and a big ole gag order slapped on the union. The RLA is pretty clear about the legal ramifications. Might as well be saying go out and beat down the guy that beat up your kid brother. Yeah, it might make a bigger impact, but in the end you just go to jail for assault.
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

I knew I didn't want to fly for the airlines. But after reading this, I DEFINATELY don't want to fly for the airlines. I have just come to this industry(just over a year, instructing at 2 schools to make it happen), from an industry where I organized a walk out. We all got $5 an hour more (Auto Mechs. at one dealership). And we didn't have a union. And because of that, two months later, I lost my job on a technicality. But I moved on to another dealership, and was still employed. What good is the union doing you fella's anyways if this is all they can muster up?

From an outsiders POV. What would happen, if every pilot in the US (or even half) decided to walk off the job one day. Is it against the law, sure. If there was 100,000 less pilots who showed up to work one day, and the flights didn't go, don't you think someone would listen? Whats the fine/punishment for a strike anyways?

Does anyone remember when Regan fired all the ATC guys for striking? Didn't most of them get back to work soon after? I don't know thats why I ask. I would rather see a mass walk-off than a 1st year FO make $19k a year. Mabey it would be beneficial to get someone like 60 mins. involved in this. Find a pilot who has a family to support, and is on WIC/Foodstamps/Wellfare. The airlines need more pressure put on them than what the unions have done so far.

Again, from an outsiders point of view, sounds like ALL airline pilots need to grow a backbone, and freakin stand up for themselves, AS A WHOLE. Sometimes, it has to get worse before it gets better. Imagine the dismay when the general public tuned into ^) mins., and saw that the guy who was flying them around at FL360 was only making $19k a year. You think they'd still trust you with their life?
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

mshunter said:
I knew I didn't want to fly for the airlines. But after reading this, I DEFINATELY don't want to fly for the airlines. I have just come to this industry(just over a year, instructing at 2 schools to make it happen), from an industry where I organized a walk out. We all got $5 an hour more (Auto Mechs. at one dealership). And we didn't have a union. And because of that, two months later, I lost my job on a technicality. But I moved on to another dealership, and was still employed. What good is the union doing you fella's anyways if this is all they can muster up?

From an outsiders POV. What would happen, if every pilot in the US (or even half) decided to walk off the job one day. Is it against the law, sure. If there was 100,000 less pilots who showed up to work one day, and the flights didn't go, don't you think someone would listen? Whats the fine/punishment for a strike anyways?

Does anyone remember when Regan fired all the ATC guys for striking? Didn't most of them get back to work soon after? I don't know thats why I ask. I would rather see a mass walk-off than a 1st year FO make $19k a year. Mabey it would be beneficial to get someone like 60 mins. involved in this. Find a pilot who has a family to support, and is on WIC/Foodstamps/Wellfare. The airlines need more pressure put on them than what the unions have done so far.

Again, from an outsiders point of view, sounds like ALL airline pilots need to grow a backbone, and freakin stand up for themselves, AS A WHOLE. Sometimes, it has to get worse before it gets better. Imagine the dismay when the general public tuned into ^) mins., and saw that the guy who was flying them around at FL360 was only making $19k a year. You think they'd still trust you with their life?
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1st, the public wouldn't care. That's for sure. Pilots are not forced to take a 19k a yr job. There are LOTS of other careers that endure low to no pay at the entry level. The public will say cry me a river. Especially in this economic environment.

2nd, the pilots making 19k a yr are 1st yr pilots representing a very small percentage of each airline's pilot groups. It would be a waste of negotiating capital to fiercely address the topic during negotiations when such a small amount of pilots are affected. With hiring being shut down for almost a yr now I don't think there are many left on 1st yr pay industry wide.

3rd, I'm a strong believer in the free market system. The airlines are a business. Why would they raise pay on an entry level position when there are thousands lined up willing to take the job? And those that have the job aren't leaving? And most of all, why would they raise the pay of a job that has thousands waiting to fill an open spot when they aren't making any money? Supply and demand will be the main factor that determines entry level pay, not a 60 minutes sob story.:D
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

mshunter said:
I knew I didn't want to fly for the airlines. But after reading this, I DEFINATELY don't want to fly for the airlines. I have just come to this industry(just over a year, instructing at 2 schools to make it happen), from an industry where I organized a walk out. We all got $5 an hour more (Auto Mechs. at one dealership). And we didn't have a union. And because of that, two months later, I lost my job on a technicality. But I moved on to another dealership, and was still employed. What good is the union doing you fella's anyways if this is all they can muster up?

From an outsiders POV. What would happen, if every pilot in the US (or even half) decided to walk off the job one day. Is it against the law, sure. If there was 100,000 less pilots who showed up to work one day, and the flights didn't go, don't you think someone would listen? Whats the fine/punishment for a strike anyways?

Does anyone remember when Regan fired all the ATC guys for striking? Didn't most of them get back to work soon after? I don't know thats why I ask. I would rather see a mass walk-off than a 1st year FO make $19k a year. Mabey it would be beneficial to get someone like 60 mins. involved in this. Find a pilot who has a family to support, and is on WIC/Foodstamps/Wellfare. The airlines need more pressure put on them than what the unions have done so far.

Again, from an outsiders point of view, sounds like ALL airline pilots need to grow a backbone, and freakin stand up for themselves, AS A WHOLE. Sometimes, it has to get worse before it gets better. Imagine the dismay when the general public tuned into ^) mins., and saw that the guy who was flying them around at FL360 was only making $19k a year. You think they'd still trust you with their life?
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I know you're just stating your opinion, but you have zero idea what you're talking about. The climate of the regional industry is the way it is because it's the bottom of the barrel for pilots that want to make it to the bigs. Yeah it's b/s that they get paid crap, but blame the company/ climate of the industry. If ur a pilot trying to make it to the top, you wouldn't throw it all away for some walk off. It's unfortunate things are the way they are, but it is what it is. Things will get better, they can't get any worse. The regionals will be screwed in a few years when the old guys retire and there are no new young guys to fill the void.
 
Re: Is there light at end of the tunnel for us regional FO's

Trip7 said:
1st, the public wouldn't care. That's for sure. Pilots are not forced to take a 19k a yr job. There are LOTS of other careers that endure low to no pay at the entry level. The public will say cry me a river. Especially in this economic environment.

2nd, the pilots making 19k a yr are 1st yr pilots representing a very small percentage of each airline's pilot groups. It would be a waste of negotiating capital to fiercely address the topic during negotiations when such a small amount of pilots are affected. With hiring being shut down for almost a yr now I don't think there are many left on 1st yr pay industry wide.

3rd, I'm a strong believer in the free market system. The airlines are a business. Why would they raise pay on an entry level position when there are thousands lined up willing to take the job? And those that have the job aren't leaving? And most of all, why would they raise the pay of a job that has thousands waiting to fill an open spot when they aren't making any money? Supply and demand will be the main factor that determines entry level pay, not a 60 minutes sob story.:D
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Translation = I don't want to be part of the answer to the problem.
 
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