Flight training

[ssuwan]

So I'm 26 years old and thinking about a career change. I've always wanted to become an airline pilot but where I grew up it was a very competitive and expensive just to get into any flight training program so I never thought it was possible. Now I'm in the US, I own a restaurant so at the moment I work more than full time 7 days a week.Due to many reasons I want to change my career. While I was looking for another career path I stumbled on the pilot and start looking into it and seeing that it is a possibility.

While I was looking for a flight school in the area I met someone from an aviation club and he just start teaching and he offered me a pretty good rate for instructor fees and the club's cessna 172 was only $124/hr which is the cheapest in the area that I found so far. I am set to start my first lesson this Friday.

Today I was looking at the ATP flight school site and start trying to compare the both. What I've found so far is
ATP program
- "guaranteed" CFI job after the program
- fly more and finish faster. From what I see it is a full time program which means they fly every total for about 80 hours for PPL(from what I calculate from their website). and the program only takes 9 months(3months for PPL) from start to CFII&MEII
- I figured I would get more connections if I go this route.
- con is it will be way more expensive (about $80k from nothing to CFI)than the other way and since it looks like a full time program it will be hard to work while I do this and I would have to wait for a few months before I can start doing this full time.

Aviation club
- A lot cheaper than ATP from what I calculate just to get the PPL part. total would be around $17k vs however many hours I would need which I think will cost me around $10k
- Since I can do this part time I can start doing this now starting from once/ twice a week and can increase the time when I ever I can/want.
- I can do the flight lesson in the morning and work at night since I have to finance myself through this whole thing.
- cons are the timeline. Since I will be doing this part time it will probably take much longer. I figured a year and a half to 2 years just to get CFII&MEII. which is about twice as long.

So right now I'm really stuck. On one hand I want to finish this as soon as I can. but on the other hand the price different will really hit me hard.

How many hours &how much money do people usually spend geting IFR and CPL and CFI(please break it down if you can)

My question is if I do everything through aviation club how much do you think it would cost me from PPL to getting CFII&MEII. Is it worth paying the difference to go through ATP school instead of this?

 

[bLizZuE]

I would recommend the flying club, but understand that CFIs in smaller clubs or schools tend to build time and leave. Have a conversation with him about his plans if you decide to get your ratings with him.

I personally have never been a fan of ATP or their timeline. If you can spend less money - spend less money. I left flight school in 2007 and I’m still paying off that loan.

 

[hook_dupin]

Is the restaraunt doing well enough that you can hire a manager and let that person run the place?

 

[Lunchbox]

I did the pay as you go at your own pace plan. It ended up taking me about 5 extra years to finish. You really have to be self motivated and not procrastinate. Which is what happened with me, I either ran out of money or was too busy working. When you go really slow you end up spending a lot of extra money refreshing on the previous lesson that you forgot about 2 weeks ago. In the long run I still saved a ton of money but if I could do it all over again I would have just gone to ATP flight school and knocked it out with full time dedication. Today it makes a lot more sense to if you do have to finance a large chunk with regionals paying $60k year 1 and some flight schools even offering a CFI hiring bonus. Back when I started I didn't want to take a $60k loan for ATP zero to hero (old price) to try and get a $20k regional job which was extremely hard to get. Now regionals will call you for a job. I recommend at least looking into the details of the LAT flight school in Arizona. They partnered up with United and you can start class flying an Airbus or 737 at United directly after flight instructing with only 1500 hours. It's part of the UAL CPP program and the first class of flight instructors are in class now at UAL.

 

[CFI A&P]

Good.
Fast.
Cheap.

Pick two, because you can’t have all three. Think this through all the way, from 0 hours to what you’ll need to start at an airline job (ATP). No matter which school you decide to go with, you’ll finish with total time somewhere in the 250-300 hour range. That means you’ll have to either instruct or find a non-instructing (banner, sight seeing, various FO positions) job to get your hours up to ATP minimums then find a regional job. Busier schools such as ATP or the ones in sunny places (California, Arizona, Florida) will allow you to get your hours up faster than say the PNW.

Good luck and use the search function. This subject is discussed daily in every online platform.

 

[CUTigerPilot]

If you can get your ratings for less money... do that! I went through ATP when I was 28. I won't say it didn't work for me because it did. I knocked out 5 ratings in 7 months. But I went to a local flight school to get my CFI and started working for them. They paid for my CFII/MEI. They also had about 100 Chinese students at the time, and so flight hours were there to be had. I also picked up domestic (US) students here and there (mostly CSEL students). Had I known what I do now, I would have done all of my ratings with the school I ended up working for. I would have saved about $20k.

I thought I was "old/late" to the game so that is part of what drove me to go to ATP. But I'll tell you I was still below the average age in my new hire class at PSA.

https://www.flyfalcon.com/ if you want some information on the flight school I worked at. Might not be an option, but gives you a comparison if nothing else. You've got time at 26, no need to spend more than you have to or are willing.

 

[srn121]

Take your time and have fun with it. Your 26 which is still very young. I would look into their instructor, because some clubs have some very experienced pilots that just do it for a hobby on the side or because they're largely retired from anything else. If that's the case I'd say the club makes even more sense.

Also if you're doing well enough to run a restaurant of your own perhaps you'd just like to do flying as a hobby on the side which can be the most fun of all. I'd look into your personal, business and family life to see if starting out as a pilot is something you'd really be comfortable doing as your first job in aviation might be a bit tough. Once you build time a lot of great doors open up, but you might have to move to get your first job and that job might be tough on your personal life.

Also one more thing to think about with the club that might make a lot of sense is that you should be able to take the plane to do some fun things with it once you get your private. I'm not familiar with ATP, but I know at the big schools the cross countries are all planned out and it seems like they miss a lot of the fun of landing somewhere, grabbing the crew car for a bite or maybe just flying somewhere for a game or a fun evening and then flying home the following day. I didn't really enjoy my private pilot training all that much, but once I found out how fun flying by myself could be it made it so worth it.

 

[texas_pilot]

Never mentioned is to buy a decent inexpensive single engine, get most of it financed and make a deal with a CFI, discounted training to make your bird available. The payment is covered by rentals to the other students and you fly daily. Get your ratings and sell the plane.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

So I'm 26 years old and thinking about a career change. I've always wanted to become an airline pilot but where I grew up it was a very competitive and expensive just to get into any flight training program so I never thought it was possible.

It's totally possible, you've got plenty of time. Don't make any big decisions until you have a private license. And remember, it isn't a race to get to another job that you don't want to do anymore (take your time, airplanes aren't going anywhere).

 

[ssuwan]

Is the restaraunt doing well enough that you can hire a manager and let that person run the place?

No, Actually in the process of selling hence the reason for looking for new career path.

I would recommend the flying club, but understand that CFIs in smaller clubs or schools tend to build time and leave. Have a conversation with him about his plans if you decide to get your ratings with him.

I personally have never been a fan of ATP or their timeline. If you can spend less money - spend less money. I left flight school in 2007 and I’m still paying off that loan.

Thanks for the input. I think that's what I'll do. At least until I get my PPL and then I'll go from there.

I did the pay as you go at your own pace plan. It ended up taking me about 5 extra years to finish. You really have to be self motivated and not procrastinate. Which is what happened with me, I either ran out of money or was too busy working. When you go really slow you end up spending a lot of extra money refreshing on the previous lesson that you forgot about 2 weeks ago. In the long run I still saved a ton of money but if I could do it all over again I would have just gone to ATP flight school and knocked it out with full time dedication. Today it makes a lot more sense to if you do have to finance a large chunk with regionals paying $60k year 1 and some flight schools even offering a CFI hiring bonus. Back when I started I didn't want to take a $60k loan for ATP zero to hero (old price) to try and get a $20k regional job which was extremely hard to get. Now regionals will call you for a job. I recommend at least looking into the details of the LAT flight school in Arizona. They partnered up with United and you can start class flying an Airbus or 737 at United directly after flight instructing with only 1500 hours. It's part of the UAL CPP program and the first class of flight instructors are in class now at UAL.

That's kind of what I was thinking and afraid would happen. Not trying to rush anything but I'm afraid that if I do it at my own pace without commitment(like have a student loan debt)riding my back I will slow down because of various unforseen reason. Especially financial since I would have to pay out of pocket. and the reason I'm only looking in the area is because I will move back with my parents to save money while I train.

 

[ssuwan]

If you can get your ratings for less money... do that! I went through ATP when I was 28. I won't say it didn't work for me because it did. I knocked out 5 ratings in 7 months. But I went to a local flight school to get my CFI and started working for them. They paid for my CFII/MEI. They also had about 100 Chinese students at the time, and so flight hours were there to be had. I also picked up domestic (US) students here and there (mostly CSEL students). Had I known what I do now, I would have done all of my ratings with the school I ended up working for. I would have saved about $20k.

I thought I was "old/late" to the game so that is part of what drove me to go to ATP. But I'll tell you I was still below the average age in my new hire class at PSA.

https://www.flyfalcon.com/ if you want some information on the flight school I worked at. Might not be an option, but gives you a comparison if nothing else. You've got time at 26, no need to spend more than you have to or are willing.

I think that is kind of the mind set I had when I started researching(started too old/late) since where I'm from(Thailand) people that wants to become pilot start studying for it since sophomore in high school. It was a very hard field to get in back there so there were never a chance. So when I compare to them I had that mentality going in. but I guess I still got plenty of time after talking to people and reading the replies here.
Thank you for the reference by the way

 

[ssuwan]

Good.
Fast.
Cheap.

Pick two, because you can’t have all three. Think this through all the way, from 0 hours to what you’ll need to start at an airline job (ATP). No matter which school you decide to go with, you’ll finish with total time somewhere in the 250-300 hour range. That means you’ll have to either instruct or find a non-instructing (banner, sight seeing, various FO positions) job to get your hours up to ATP minimums then find a regional job. Busier schools such as ATP or the ones in sunny places (California, Arizona, Florida) will allow you to get your hours up faster than say the PNW.

Good luck and use the search function. This subject is discussed daily in every online platform.

Thanks for the tip. I think I'll try to get my PPL with the guy from the club and then go from there. I'll use those time to figure out which 2 of the good, fast and cheap I'd want.

 

[ssuwan]

Take your time and have fun with it. Your 26 which is still very young. I would look into their instructor, because some clubs have some very experienced pilots that just do it for a hobby on the side or because they're largely retired from anything else. If that's the case I'd say the club makes even more sense.

Also if you're doing well enough to run a restaurant of your own perhaps you'd just like to do flying as a hobby on the side which can be the most fun of all. I'd look into your personal, business and family life to see if starting out as a pilot is something you'd really be comfortable doing as your first job in aviation might be a bit tough. Once you build time a lot of great doors open up, but you might have to move to get your first job and that job might be tough on your personal life.

Also one more thing to think about with the club that might make a lot of sense is that you should be able to take the plane to do some fun things with it once you get your private. I'm not familiar with ATP, but I know at the big schools the cross countries are all planned out and it seems like they miss a lot of the fun of landing somewhere, grabbing the crew car for a bite or maybe just flying somewhere for a game or a fun evening and then flying home the following day. I didn't really enjoy my private pilot training all that much, but once I found out how fun flying by myself could be it made it so worth it.

I'm doing doing very well financially so I am selling the restaurant and looking for a career change. Plus restaurant life is pure hell.NEVER OPEN A RESTAURANT. so eventually I will have all the time I need to do the training. but for now I'm still stuck here 14 hours everyday. and the person that they sent me to talk to from the club just recently got his CFI maybe about a month ago. But I'll give it a go and see how it goes.

 

[ssuwan]

Never mentioned is to buy a decent inexpensive single engine, get most of it financed and make a deal with a CFI, discounted training to make your bird available. The payment is covered by rentals to the other students and you fly daily. Get your ratings and sell the plane.

That sound like a good idea. But for now with the financial situation that I'm in I don't think this will be possible. but maybe I'll do this when I become CFI.
but let's say if i find a way to make this work and start looking for a plane which single engine would you recommend looking into. Something that is fuel efficient, and i can carry on using it for the IFR training and keep it to fly for fun and to rent out for when I get my CFI.
Just so I can look and see how much I will be putting my self into.

It's totally possible, you've got plenty of time. Don't make any big decisions until you have a private license. And remember, it isn't a race to get to another job that you don't want to do anymore (take your time, airplanes aren't going anywhere).

Thank you. The reason behind the question was not because I want to rush this to get to the airline, but because I was afraid that if I do this at my own pace the cost might become more because I don't fly often enough. I figured once I got all my ratings(at least PPL)done I can have all the fun I want flying solo without having to pay for the instructor. But I see your point. Thank you very much

 

[ssuwan]

Thanks for all the reply. I have already book the first lesson this Friday morning with the club. Hopefully everything goes well.
How long does it usually take to get IFR and CPL rating on average? and what do you guys think about doing this through community college?

 

[SeanD]

Clubs are better IMO because you have access to different types. I originally started my training through a community college program but things moved kind of slow. It was great for the ground portion. The college only had one flight school they worked with and it was tough to schedule time. Plus their airplanes were POS and broken a lot. I got impatient and found a club.
It really depends on your availability, plane availability and of course money. IR was easily the toughest and took me half a year but I was also working full time and tight with funds. If you're wanting to get everything done asap its basically like a full-time job plus overtime. Good luck.

 

[Jordan93]

You should also make sure you can hold a first class medical before you pour any significant amount of money into the training.

 

[ssuwan]

You should also make sure you can hold a first class medical before you pour any significant amount of money into the training.

So it's a good idea to get it now even before I get my PPL?

Clubs are better IMO because you have access to different types. I originally started my training through a community college program but things moved kind of slow. It was great for the ground portion. The college only had one flight school they worked with and it was tough to schedule time. Plus their airplanes were POS and broken a lot. I got impatient and found a club.
It really depends on your availability, plane availability and of course money. IR was easily the toughest and took me half a year but I was also working full time and tight with funds. If you're wanting to get everything done asap its basically like a full-time job plus overtime. Good luck.

The thing about community college is the ground part. I'm sure you learn a lot and it's quite a bit cheaper since it's like a 5 unit class. But I've never been good at learning from the class room and I've been doing kingschool online. It's been working out good so far since I understand better and I think I retain good amount of what I learned. plus if I forget anything I can go back and watch it again any time.
The flight part is the one I'm more interested about since I am thinking they might have a more experience than the ones in the club which most of them are going to be people that trying to build hours and leave. The plane part though, from when I talk to both of them, the community college has more variety of planes. The club that I looked at has a few planes but they are all 172, which I don't mind. And they are about the same price $120-124 wet.

 

[Jordan93]

So it's a good idea to get it now even before I get my PPL?


The thing about community college is the ground part. I'm sure you learn a lot and it's quite a bit cheaper since it's like a 5 unit class. But I've never been good at learning from the class room and I've been doing kingschool online. It's been working out good so far since I understand better and I think I retain good amount of what I learned. plus if I forget anything I can go back and watch it again any time.
The flight part is the one I'm more interested about since I am thinking they might have a more experience than the ones in the club which most of them are going to be people that trying to build hours and leave. The plane part though, from when I talk to both of them, the community college has more variety of planes. The club that I looked at has a few planes but they are all 172, which I don't mind. And they are about the same price $120-124 wet.

Yes. You’ll need one to fly for the airlines. Better make sure you can hold one before spending $50K on all your ratings.

 

[86BravoPapa]

If you go the local club/flight school route MAKE SURE they have AT LEAST TWO aircraft for training. I've done 141 and 61 programs and both are good for different reasons BUT, airplanes BREAK. Come to think of it, I've never flown one in which everything worked.

Waiting for that one (or even two airplanes at busier local schools) to get necessary repairs will either give you fits or force you to become the most patient person in the world. Most likely costing you some extra money or delayed checkrides, at the very least.

No longer needing a complex for your commercial, save the ten hours required, is going to save A LOT of students A LOT of headaches.

Death to Cessna single engine retractables.