Eighteen Year Restoration - Then This

[knot4u]

Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of a T-6, Birddog, etc. It seems like that segment of GA holds value well and even has gone up. Plus I think they're fun to fly.

Don't think I'd be able to pull of a P-51 or Sea Fury unless my investments and income shot up and I partnered with a couple of like minded people. But you never know. I've doubted myself before and things turn out ok usually lol.

I’m sorry, who are you?

 

[knot4u]

If its just a flippant decision go buy one and then come back and tell us about ownership. I’d rather have a Beaver.

 

[Hacker15e]

Don't think I'd be able to pull of a P-51 or Sea Fury unless my investments and income shot up

Setting aside that you can't buy a Mustang for $2 mil (and you certainly can't get checked out in it, maintain it, or insure/operate it with that budget).

Just realize that both of the United States insurance underwriters that will cover warbird fighters require 200 hours of T-6 time before they will cover you in a Mustang...and even at that, they will probably require that you go do the full checkout course at Stallion 51.

If you're just getting into warbird flying, your entry point and most important builder of experience and airmanship is the T-6. If you don't have any taildragger time, then you're going to need a year's worth of light tailwheel experience before you strap on a Texan.

If you've never read it, go find the 1966 report "Civil Pilot Accident Experience with High Performance Military Surplus Type Aircraft" by Dr Snyder, and that'll tell you everything you need to know about why this is the experience path today.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

“Well…I wouldn’t be working for you, Deke…”

 

[ajm757]

Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of a T-6, Birddog, etc. It seems like that segment of GA holds value well and even has gone up. Plus I think they're fun to fly.

Don't think I'd be able to pull of a P-51 or Sea Fury unless my investments and income shot up and I partnered with a couple of like minded people.

Setting aside that you can't buy a Mustang for $2 mil (and you certainly can't get checked out in it, maintain it, or insure/operate it with that budget).

Just realize that both of the United States insurance underwriters that will cover warbird fighters require 200 hours of T-6 time before they will cover you in a Mustang...and even at that, they will probably require that you go do the full checkout course at Stallion 51.

If you're just getting into warbird flying, your entry point and most important builder of experience and airmanship is the T-6. If you don't have any taildragger time, then you're going to need a year's worth of light tailwheel experience before you strap on a Texan.

If you've never read it, go find the 1966 report "Civil Pilot Accident Experience with High Performance Military Surplus Type Aircraft" by Dr Snyder, and that'll tell you everything you need to know about why this is the experience path today.

thank you for the info. I certainly have lots of learning to do.

 

[Hacker15e]

thank you for the info. I certainly have lots of learning to do.

Hope you don't take that as trying to throw shade on your aspirations, because that's the opposite of my intent. I try and convince everyone (even the folks who aren't interested, haha) to get involved in warbird flying because I find it fun, it develops airmanship in ways many segments of the professional flying world can't, and it needs a constant source of new/younger people getting involved to ensure the airplanes and the history they represent don't become relegated to dusty displays in forlorn museums and the living, breathing sights and sounds become only an echo of a memory.

If you are legit interested in playing warbird, put your money on a T-6, get a formal checkout from a place like Warbird Adventures (or Texan Flight Ops/Stallion 51), and go fly the snot out of it for a couple hundred hours -- 3-5 years, depending on how much effort you put into it.

Join NATA and get a formation card and learn that set of skills and discipline. Meet and network with other warbird folks and go get into adventures in the Six for a few years.

Just those steps alone will give you a large amount of clarity about your skills, your enjoyment of it, and where you might want to go after that.

 

[Boris Badenov]

He's a troll, teasing out heartfelt missives from people whose time is worth more per hour than he'll ever be worth, to be sure. That said, I've never seen the point of strapping on a Mustang (or, let's say something interesting like a Typhoon or Bearcat) if you aren't halfway scared to do it. Something like $5k/hour and you aren't even adrenaline-spiked? That's poor value for money! Let's be earnest, here. You don't throw down a cool million to own and fly something preposterously impractical because it's a rational form of conveyance, and if your first priority is to move about safely, you should invest in riding around in Deltur First Class with the Toddler.

I mean I don't have a reasonable aspiration to own a fire-breathing radial-engined monster in a way that won't bankrupt me, but it's not out of the question that I might just clear the hurdle to get me a Delphin or an Albatross or, I dunno, a T-28? But if I were to do so, the whole project would be essentially ABOUT the danger. Remind me that I'm only a man, like Posco whispering in Caesar's ear that he is Mortal. Reason is out the window from the outset, it's the whole point of the thing.

 

[///AMG]

Setting aside that you can't buy a Mustang for $2 mil (and you certainly can't get checked out in it, maintain it, or insure/operate it with that budget).

If you've never read it, go find the 1966 report "Civil Pilot Accident Experience with High Performance Military Surplus Type Aircraft" by Dr Snyder, and that'll tell you everything you need to know about why this is the experience path today.

Speaking of this (and I've probably told this story before), my old man said that when he started active duty flying in 1958 (or around then), they were selling surplus P-51s for $500. He always regretted not picking one up. Granted that was more money back then, but still, probably doable on a JO budget. I wonder if that led to your second point, as in any yahoo could get into one for a pretty reasonable initial investment.

 

[Boris Badenov]

They bulldozed the damned things in to the ground as surplus to requirements, to my recollection. I think most of the people who lived through that mess just wanted to put it behind them. Pops certainly did. Never did hear much about it until Mom bought a Honda, then holy hell you'd think she peed all over Jesus on the Cross. Probably a lot of Mustangs just waiting to get dug up, if you're in to that kind of thing.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

They bulldozed the damned things in to the ground as surplus to requirements, to my recollection. I think most of the people who lived through that mess just wanted to put it behind them. Pops certainly did. Never did hear much about it until Mom bought a Honda, then holy hell you'd think she peed all over Jesus on the Cross. Probably a lot of Mustangs just waiting to get dug up, if you're in to that kind of thing.

As long as everyone acknowledges that for the most part these were (1) not normal category and (2) very much throwaway airplanes, it’s fine.

(otherwise, they wouldn’t have been surplussed in such dramatic fashions)

 

[Hacker15e]

Speaking of this (and I've probably told this story before), my old man said that when he started active duty flying in 1958 (or around then), they were selling surplus P-51s for $500. He always regretted not picking one up. Granted that was more money back then, but still, probably doable on a JO budget. I wonder if that led to your second point, as in any yahoo could get into one for a pretty reasonable initial investment.

Yes, that's essentially the core take-away from the Snyder report.

Even in a time when it was far more common for the average private pilot to have some kind of taildragger experience, just as today essentially all of the (very high number) of the accidents were pilot error of the sort that they were just not able to handle something that high performance. It was a lot of tiger to grab by the tail without the type of lead-in experience we're talking about, and the low cost to enter gave lots of opportunity to observe datapoints for safety reports.

In many ways, today's very high operations, maintenance, and insurance costs keep the barrier to entry pretty high, so there's a natural filter now. As with everywhere in modern life, it is the bankers and insurers who are effectively providing the guardrails...and still we get over-financed and under-trained pilot/owners combining for things like this:

But, back to the other point from above, new people are needed to play, so many times it is necessary to stick out a hand to help out someone who might have the aptitude but is superficially intimidated to take the first steps.

 

[Hacker15e]

Probably a lot of Mustangs just waiting to get dug up, if you're in to that kind of thing.

Contrary to urban legend, very few aircraft were buried. After the war, the aluminum was needed for the industrial boom that followed, hence all the smelters at the center of the boneyards in Tulsa, Kingman, etc.

 

[Richman]

This isn’t the early 80s, which was probably the last time someone who was just “regular rich” could go out and buy a Mustang. Maybe a retired bank regional manager, or successful small business owner. Rich yes, but not “fluck you” rich.

The skill and support capability has dried up for these airplanes. This is a now a game for the rich with a fair amount of “fluck you” money.

 

[Richman]

This isn’t the early 80s, which was probably the last time someone who was just “regular rich” could go out and buy a Mustang. Maybe a retired bank regional manager, or successful small business owner. Rich yes, but not “fluck you” rich.

The skill and support capability has dried up for these airplanes. This is a now a game for the rich with a fair amount of “fluck you” money.

I would also add that many other aircraft are rapidly being added to that list. Routine MX for what used to be "garden variety" airplanes is drying up as well. Ruddervators for Bonanzas, center spar sections for 177s/210s, gear saddles for Cessna SE retractables. None of these things are particularly hard to make, but they do require skill and tooling, a set procedure with some specialized machining, heat treating or chemical processing. Magnesium stamping, for instance, is hardly new, but for aviation purposes, it needs to be hot stamped and then a chromic acid dip afterwards, and that has become environmentally fussy.

 

[ajm757]

He's a troll, teasing out heartfelt missives from people whose time is worth more per hour than he'll ever be worth, to be sure. That said, I've never seen the point of strapping on a Mustang (or, let's say something interesting like a Typhoon or Bearcat) if you aren't halfway scared to do it. Something like $5k/hour and you aren't even adrenaline-spiked? That's poor value for money! Let's be earnest, here. You don't throw down a cool million to own and fly something preposterously impractical because it's a rational form of conveyance, and if your first priority is to move about safely, you should invest in riding around in Deltur First Class with the Toddler.

I mean I don't have a reasonable aspiration to own a fire-breathing radial-engined monster in a way that won't bankrupt me, but it's not out of the question that I might just clear the hurdle to get me a Delphin or an Albatross or, I dunno, a T-28? But if I were to do so, the whole project would be essentially ABOUT the danger. Remind me that I'm only a man, like Posco whispering in Caesar's ear that he is Mortal. Reason is out the window from the outset, it's the whole point of the thing.

I’m not a troll dude. I’m asking serious questions about seeking out this path.

 

[ajm757]

Hope you don't take that as trying to throw shade on your aspirations, because that's the opposite of my intent. I try and convince everyone (even the folks who aren't interested, haha) to get involved in warbird flying because I find it fun, it develops airmanship in ways many segments of the professional flying world can't, and it needs a constant source of new/younger people getting involved to ensure the airplanes and the history they represent don't become relegated to dusty displays in forlorn museums and the living, breathing sights and sounds become only an echo of a memory.

If you are legit interested in playing warbird, put your money on a T-6, get a formal checkout from a place like Warbird Adventures (or Texan Flight Ops/Stallion 51), and go fly the snot out of it for a couple hundred hours -- 3-5 years, depending on how much effort you put into it.

Join NATA and get a formation card and learn that set of skills and discipline. Meet and network with other warbird folks and go get into adventures in the Six for a few years.

Just those steps alone will give you a large amount of clarity about your skills, your enjoyment of it, and where you might want to go after that.

Thank you. I think this is somewhat within my reach and familiar with NATA. Another to consider is that these costs likely wouldn’t last for good. I could try it out for a few years and reassess if it’s something I want to continue.

 

[Richman]

Fuel prices are on their way up, and may be that way for a couple years. The people who have a marginal ability to be ok with the costs of operation may choke it down for a bit, but eventually you’ll see them start to bail and prices will come down.

 

[ajm757]

Fuel prices are on their way up, and may be that way for a couple years. The people who have a marginal ability to be ok with the costs of operation may choke it down for a bit, but eventually you’ll see them start to bail and prices will come down.

Prices will come down for GA planes or do you think warbirds as well? I can’t see that group selling their planes because of fuel prices.

 

[Richman]

Prices will come down for GA planes or do you think warbirds as well? I can’t see that group selling their planes because of fuel prices.

Um….pistons take avgas, and jets take jet fuel.

I do understand that the new G100UL fuel has better detonation qualities than 100LL, so some warbirds may be able to go back to full power.

Starting to get a troll vibe here too…I mean, fuel is kinda basic.

 

[ajm757]

Um….pistons take avgas, and jets take jet fuel.

I do understand that the new G100UL fuel has better detonation qualities than 100LL, so some warbirds may be able to go back to full power.

Starting to get a troll vibe here too…I mean, fuel is kinda basic.

I'm talking about warbird owners. I don't see them selling their planes because fuel prices have gone up.