You're the FO

I've aborted from both sides. I've found aborts to be more squirrely in turboprops and we only were going about 10 knots slower.

A turboprop may be "squirrely," but you're unlikely to start a brake/tire fire during an abort in one, and you're really unlikely to go off the end of a runway at a high speed in one. Those are very real risks in a large jet from a high-speed abort.
 
A turboprop may be "squirrely," but you're unlikely to start a brake/tire fire during an abort in one, and you're really unlikely to go off the end of a runway at a high speed in one. Those are very real risks in a large jet from a high-speed abort.

I see what you're saying but that's what V1 is for. I know from experience working on Tankers that brake fires occur in 3 main scenarios

A) Leaky break (most common)
B) On the brakes way too early
C) Antiskid fail

People go off the end of the runway when they abort after V1, which they should not be doing unless they know for a fact that going into the air will mean certain death and destruction worse than the alternative.
 
I see what you're saying but that's what V1 is for. I know from experience working on Tankers that brake fires occur in 3 main scenarios

A) Leaky break (most common)
B) On the brakes way too early
C) Antiskid fail

People go off the end of the runway when they abort after V1, which they should not be doing unless they know for a fact that going into the air will mean certain death and destruction worse than the alternative.

I'm not sure what kind of aircraft you fly, but on the CRJ during a FLEX takeoff, we were very routinely rotating a few hundred feet from the end of the runway. An abort would have sent us well off the end, even if initiated at V1-30.
 
Just a moment later passing 90 knots, you hear the DING of the master caution, so you glance at the EICAS screen and see "WINDSHIELD HEAT 2 FAIL."
Non essential CAS messages are inhibited above 80 kts. The only amber CAS that can be displayed above that is a anti-skid fail....which you don't abort for.
 
PS......The non-rev pilots in the back will be reporting the crew to your company and the FAA as soon as you land.

...the final decision needs to be up to the Captain. The FO can call out what he sees and suggest an abort, but the Captain makes the decision.
I have to agree with falconvalley. Aborts and go around are time critical, a good CRM program will allow for either pilot to call for a go-around or an abort. The pilot flying will initiate, but either pilot can make the call. You don't have time to advise the Capt and allow him to ponder it...while blasting down the runway. NJA has a "no-fault" policy for go arounds and aborts. They may be called by either pilot.

In the initial post, the FOs call should have been, "Windshield .....fail, continue."
 
I'm not sure what kind of aircraft you fly, but on the CRJ during a FLEX takeoff, we were very routinely rotating a few hundred feet from the end of the runway. An abort would have sent us well off the end, even if initiated at V1-30.

I'm not sure what sort of FLEX you guys do, but with ours (and every other one I've seen) a reject AT V1 will (in theory) get you stopped before you run out of runway. That's the point of V1. If you couldn't stop in time you wouldn't be able to FLEX. "A few hundred feet"? Honestly now...
 
I'm not sure what sort of FLEX you guys do, but with ours (and every other one I've seen) a reject AT V1 will (in theory) get you stopped before you run out of runway. That's the point of V1. If you couldn't stop in time you wouldn't be able to FLEX. "A few hundred feet"? Honestly now...

"In theory" is the key in your post. In many of the southern airports that PCL operates, there are relatively short runways that can be a problem when the summer temps get near 100 degrees F. We would routinely be rotating near the end of the runway even though the numbers claimed we would be fine. If you aborted close to V1, you wouldn't stop before going off the end, no matter how hard you mashed those brakes. That's why a lot of the Captains were very wary of using FLEX numbers at some of these airports.
 
I'm not sure what kind of aircraft you fly, but on the CRJ during a FLEX takeoff, we were very routinely rotating a few hundred feet from the end of the runway. An abort would have sent us well off the end, even if initiated at V1-30.

Then something is very wrong with your data or the way it is computed. If you can't accel to V1 and stop in the remaining runway, regardless of FLEX or MAX, you don't really have a V1 by definition.
 
I assume FLEX takeoffs are reduced power.
That being said why are captains doing FLEX takeoffs if safety is being compromised?
 
I'm not sure what sort of FLEX you guys do, but with ours (and every other one I've seen) a reject AT V1 will (in theory) get you stopped before you run out of runway. That's the point of V1. If you couldn't stop in time you wouldn't be able to FLEX. "A few hundred feet"? Honestly now...

That's the definition of V1. We used a MIN V1 often with a flex but still, it is that speed to which you can accel and either takeoff or stop in the remaining runway. If you can't do that, you don't have a valid V1.

There are, as many have pointed out, many problems with high speed rejects. And something not pointed out in the discussion thus far is ANY reject is reported as an event by the tower.

But the heart of a reject. No two rejects are the same. And to conduct a true high speed reject without further problems is no easy task.

For those with autobrakes, studies show that pilots still want to get on the brakes which will disconnect the autobrakes.

For those without, the rule of thumb is if you can shove the handbook under your butt, you are not standing on the brakes hard enough.

Bring the airplane to a stop on the runway and assess the situation. Tower is going to be wanting you to get off the runway but the runway is yours so don't be in a hurry to give it up. Once you have determined you have no brake fires, no further complications, decide if you can exit the runway and then what you will do.

Note too that most taxiways are more narrow than runways so if you get on a taxiway expecting emergency equipment to reach you, know they will be able to maneuver around you. The British Midlands (?) incident illustrates what can happen where the winds blew the fire under the airplane, the ground was soaked and the emerg equipment mired up in the grass trying to get to the airplane.

And there has been some problems with the commands to keep people on the ground or evacuated. Many, if not most airlines have gone with "REMAIN SEATED" or "EVACUATE". HuFacts found that if you used "Do not evacuate', the only thing people heard was EVACUATE. More than a few incidents have occurred where pilots looked up at the annunciators and saw doors opening.

The problem not often discussed is with a balanced field, when a situation occurs at near but just below V1, without almost instant response, you may find yourself in an unsolvable situation, not enough runway to get airborne and not enough runway to get stopped without using the overrun or clearway.

Finally, many operators can not agree on whether or not to advance thrust on the good engine if an engine fails. Some say leave the thrust as is because the data was based on an engine failure at V1 and advancing the thrust will only introduce more control problems (additional yaw). Others suggest going to max thrust if you had been using a FLEX or reduced.

The summary is.. know what the procedures are. IF the throttles come back, there is no changing of the minds. REJECT. NEVER advance them again hoping to get airborne. Likewise, a short while back, a Lear at Aspen (?) proved that if you land hot and extend the speedbrakes, do not try to stow them and go around.

Oh, one final point.. just remembered. STOP STRAIGHT AHEAD. The SW 737 at Burbank probably would have stopped if the crew had not tried to turn. The turn caused the tires to break traction and then it was over. I got this info directly from one involved in the investigation so it is valid.
 
I assume FLEX takeoffs are reduced power.
That being said why are captains doing FLEX takeoffs if safety is being compromised?

Yes, FLEX is a reduced power takeoff. It uses an assumed temperature to determine the takeoff power setting instead of the actual temperate. Basically, the performance software determines what the hottest possible temperature is that you could still have the required performance margins and uses that temperature for your takeoff thrust calculation. So, instead of using 92% N1, you might be using 85% N1 instead.

To answer you second question, many Captains at Pinnacle weren't using FLEX on some of these runways because they considered it a safety issue. Kellwolf can probably attest to how many better than I can, because he was flying in the MEM routes system more than me where most of these airports are.
 
CAS Message Inhibition

Non essential CAS messages are inhibited above 80 kts. The only amber CAS that can be displayed above that is a anti-skid fail....which you don't abort for.

This is not the case for the EMB-145.

EMB-145 Airplane Flight Manual Volume 2 said:
Inhibition Logic

To avoid nuisance messages being presented to the flight crew, inhibition logic is provided to prevent some messages from being displayed during the takeoff and approach/landing phases of flight:

Takeoff Phase:
Inhibition is valid when the airplane passes V1-15 KIAS. The inhibition is deactivated when one of the following conditions is met:
- radio altitude is greater than 400 ft. or
- calibrated airspeed is less than 60 knots or
- after 1 minute

So WINDSHIELD HEAT 2 FAIL and all other failures appear on the EICAS as a master caution right up to 113 knots in this situation!
 
Our take off and landing data comes from Aerodata, and I honestly can't remember a time where I've been within the last few hundred feet and rotating. It seems that we normally have about 3000 feet left when we go, and if it's less than that, there is a big split between V1 and VR.

Sure, there are a few runways (8 in PHL... 15/33 in DCA) that seem pretty tight, but I mostly fully trust the numbers.
 
Then something is very wrong with your data or the way it is computed. If you can't accel to V1 and stop in the remaining runway, regardless of FLEX or MAX, you don't really have a V1 by definition.

There's a few times I've looked up when I've called "V1" and thought, "There ain't no way!"
 
Abort Decision

PS......The non-rev pilots in the back will be reporting the crew to your company and the FAA as soon as you land.

No matter; the first officer ASAP report would give them both all the information they could want.

Non-revs would only make a difference if the crew did not file an ASAP report. Any concerns from passengers/non-revs would classify the event as non-sole-source.

The captain would certainly have a bit of explaining to do though.

I have to agree with falconvalley. Aborts and go around are time critical, a good CRM program will allow for either pilot to call for a go-around or an abort. The pilot flying will initiate, but either pilot can make the call. You don't have time to advise the Capt and allow him to ponder it...while blasting down the runway. NJA has a "no-fault" policy for go arounds and aborts. They may be called by either pilot.

In the initial post, the FOs call should have been, "Windshield .....fail, continue."

I partially agree.

However -- if the PIC has ultimate responsibility for the safety of flight, then they are going to have to run that caution message through their mind real quick anyway. And I know the 300 hour FO debate is another issue entirely, but wouldn't a captain with 5000 PIC in that type of airplane want to have the decision to abort with a new-hire FO? Heck, forget the 300 hour FO. Even a pilot who has 3000 hours PIC from part 135 cargo in the right seat would still be an instance where the ERJ captain should be the one making the decision to abort. They know the airplane and situation better.

The no-fault go around or abort policy exists at this 'make-believe' company as well.
 
This is not the case for the EMB-145.
Takeoff Phase:
Inhibition is valid when the airplane passes V1-15 KIAS.
So if I am reading this correctly... V1 - 15 kts is where TOPI engages. If V1=100 then it begins inhibiting at 85 KIAS.
 
Yes

So if I am reading this correctly... V1 - 15 kts is where TOPI engages. If V1=100 then it begins inhibiting at 85 KIAS.

That is correct. Fifteen knots prior to V1 is where it would inhibit the master caution.

In this situation, 128 knots was V1 so 113. As you said if V1=100 then 85 knots will be the cutoff point for the messages that fall into the not-important-enough category.
 
Re: Abort Decision

And I know the 300 hour FO debate is another issue entirely, but wouldn't a captain with 5000 PIC in that type of airplane want to have the decision to abort with a new-hire FO? Heck, forget the 300 hour FO. Even a pilot who has 3000 hours PIC from part 135 cargo in the right seat would still be an instance where the ERJ captain should be the one making the decision to abort. They know the airplane and situation better.

About three months ago I flew with an FO who gave me the plane at about 60 knots on take off because he was still trying to set the take off thrust (no FADEC/autothrottles on the 200) and for some reason the take off carrots on the N1 displays went away and he flipped out. Of course he didn't TELL me why he gave me the plane so I was trying to guess what was wrong and decide if I should reject while trying to take the plane at the same time.

I guess the good news was at least he didn't call for a reject and instead just let go of the yoke and took his feet of the rudder. :)
 
Re: Abort Decision

About three months ago I flew with an FO who gave me the plane at about 60 knots on take off because he was still trying to set the take off thrust (no FADEC/autothrottles on the 200) and for some reason the take off carrots on the N1 displays went away and he flipped out. Of course he didn't TELL me why he gave me the plane so I was trying to guess what was wrong and decide if I should reject while trying to take the plane at the same time.

I guess the good news was at least he didn't call for a reject and instead just let go of the yoke and took his feet of the rudder. :)
How do you deal with the pain?
Honestly I've been wondering this a lot lately. If it's stuff on the down low PM me.
 
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