You're the FO

Nick

Well-Known Member
You're the FO and it is the captain's leg to fly.

The captain briefed the standard aborted takeoff items back at the gate. Up until 80 knots, any abnormality will result in aborting the takeoff. Between 80 and V1, the only items that will end in an abort will be fire, loss of directional control, engine failure, or if you doubt the airplane is able to fly.

You're now on the runway. The captain advances the thrust levers and calls "set thrust." You confirm the thrust is set and respond accordingly.

Soon after you make the call "80 knots." The captain replies, "cross checked."

Just a moment later passing 90 knots, you hear the DING of the master caution, so you glance at the EICAS screen and see "WINDSHIELD HEAT 2 FAIL." You read those words aloud so the captain knows what the caution was for.

At this point, around 100 knots, the captain pulls the thrust levers to idle and then into reverse and says "aborting."

The reverse thrust buckets are deployed, the speedbrakes have opened, and the captain is on the brakes.

Decelerating through about 80 knots the captain says "Wait, what am I doing?" and then shoves the thrust levers all the way forward to the stop. The captain says "continuing."

What would YOU do?


The right thing to do here, in my opinion, is not too difficult of a decision. But I do think it is an interesting thing to ponder, and better to ponder it while you browse JC than on the runway in the right seat because there isn't much time to mess around on the runway.
 

Boris Badenov

Just running in to a burning house...
I'm the FO? I'd be careful not to touch anything, say "nice job sir!" and then "gear up?", followed by "you want anything from the cooler?" :)
 

ctab5060X

Well-Known Member
The captain briefed the standard aborted takeoff items back at the gate.

<snip>

What would YOU do?
Standard abort... you, as the FO, should have notified tower of a rejected takeoff when the CA started the abort. Once you make that call, you are committed to the abort...no questions asked.
 

SFLAX

Well-Known Member
No captian worth his weight in gold would do that. But remember that little CVR thing and those people in the back. The CYA cause needs to be used. Tell him you need to talk to him later an ask him why he did that? if he says he is the captian, then ask him why he violated company policy. You want to keep your job.
 

RPJ

Well-Known Member
"The captain briefed the standard aborted takeoff items back at the gate. Up until 80 knots, any abnormality will result in aborting the takeoff. Between 80 and V1, the only items that will end in an abort will be fire, loss of directional control, engine failure, or if you doubt the airplane is able to fly."

I would think that "red warning panel message" would be added to the above briefing of abortable reasons between 80 and V1. This whole scenario would of been avoided if that was stated and only a EICAS caution, not warning, came up.

In what modern aircraft would an "windshield heat 2" failure set off a yellow caution alert and audible chime during the take-off sequence? I would suspect that the avionics logic would silence nuisance cautions, or at least with the Primus 2000 it would.
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
In what modern aircraft would an "windshield heat 2" failure set off a red warning panel alert? Especially during the take-off sequence I would suspect that the avionics logic would silence nuisance cautions, or at least with the Primus 2000 it would.
He clearly stated it set off a master caution alert (yellow).
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Strange. I'll betchya it'll fly just dandy with a failed windshield heat and I can't figure out how you're supposed to legally undo an aborted takeoff once all of the automation kicks in.

Glad he was confident that the spoilers didn't deploy, the autobrakes didn't kick in and the reversers successfully restowed! That'd be my concern fo SHO!
 

Snuggle

Well-Known Member
Strange. I'll betchya it'll fly just dandy with a failed windshield heat and I can't figure out how you're supposed to legally undo an aborted takeoff once all of the automation kicks in.

Glad he was confident that the spoilers didn't deploy, the autobrakes didn't kick in and the reversers successfully restowed! That'd be my concern fo SHO!
After the speedbrakes opened do you have to manually close them or do they close when u advance power? If they stay open that would be a big problem.
 

drummerboy

Well-Known Member
Interesting situation. As the FO unless we were going to run out of runway I would not be questioning the capt on the runway. At my company and I think at most the captain is the only one that can call for a reject. Now once you have made the decision to reject (you're on the radio calling it to tower) that is that. Even if it is a stupid mistake you complete the reject taxi back and take off again. I'd be very worried as well about spoilers deploying, having enough runway, ect.

After the flight on the ground I'd have a talk with the capt about how I didn't like the situation and that it was against SOP and could have been unsafe. For all you know the PAX could have been freaked out and will complain to the company.

I also think that this is not something that would normally happen. I know that anyone in a bigger aircraft would never try to take off again after the decision to reject.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
I dunno, me as the FO would sure as heck be reaching forward for the thrust levers yelling "REJECT" at the top of my lungs.

There are a whole lot of things that happen when you bring the thrust levers back and pop the buckets. Sure the plane is probably designed to do a touch and go (there's switch logic in there for stowing everything when you put the power back up, or at least the Arctic Version does) but that's a feature we never use and I wouldn't want to trust it would work, especially on a runway that we haven't computed for a touch and go. Ref speeds don't matter at that point, once you commit to a reject you don't change your mind and decide to continue.
 

Nick

Well-Known Member
Questions Answered

mikecweb said:
What's your V1 and VR speed.
V1 and Vr are both 128 knots.

SFLAX said:
No captian worth his weight in gold would do that.
Can't say I disagree. But something must have made me post this...:eek:

RPJ said:
I would think that "red warning panel message" would be added to the above briefing of abortable reasons between 80 and V1. This whole scenario would of been avoided if that was stated and only a EICAS caution, not warning, came up.

In what modern aircraft would an "windshield heat 2" failure set off a yellow caution alert and audible chime during the take-off sequence? I would suspect that the avionics logic would silence nuisance cautions, or at least with the Primus 2000 it would.
It looks like you are reading it correctly now but I will clarify anyway.

The WINDSHIELD HEAT 2 FAIL set off the master caution, and not the master warning. The master caution still dings on takeoff for this windshield heat problem. Yes, the ERJ came out when the 777 did but as you can see here it is really not very advanced though it does inhibit some cautions and warnings on takeoff and landing. Apparently windshield heat at 90 knots is not included.

Doug Taylor said:
Strange. I'll betchya it'll fly just dandy with a failed windshield heat and I can't figure out how you're supposed to legally undo an aborted takeoff once all of the automation kicks in.

Glad he was confident that the spoilers didn't deploy, the autobrakes didn't kick in and the reversers successfully restowed! That'd be my concern fo SHO!
It most certainly will fly just fine without windshield heat, like any other plane. In fact, in the ERJ, the windshield heat fail caution message appears to be bogus more than 80% of the time. I had it twice yesterday and it went away before I could de-select the button.

What I just wrote is probably what went through the captain's head as she was getting on the brakes.

My concern would be the same as yours about the buckets and speedbrakes.

Snuggle said:
After the speedbrakes opened do you have to manually close them or do they close when u advance power? If they stay open that would be a big problem.
The speedbrakes in the ERJ are always open above 25 knots wheelspeed on the ground with the thrust levers below a certain angle. Pushing the thrust levers through the detent and all the way up to full power, of course, goes through the angle that would stow the speedbrakes automatically. The handle remains in the closed position the whole time; no pilot action is required.

Boris Badenov said:
I'm the FO? I'd be careful not to touch anything, say "nice job sir!" and then "gear up?", followed by "you want anything from the cooler?"
I believe that this is one of those times where the FO is in the most unfortunate position of having to take the airplane from the captain.

I would have the following concerns:

- Will the speedbrakes stow? How will the plane handle if one does and one doesn't? What if an engine failed on the same side as the spoiler that is stuck in the open position?

- Will both thrust reverser buckets stow? How will the plane handle if one doesn't? If one bucket is detected to be stuck open: will there be enough runway to reject the second takeoff and if not, will the airplane fly with one bucket deployed and that engine at idle?

- How much runway is remaining and how do I know we can go from 80 and decelerating, back to accelerating through 80 and get all the way up to 130 without plowing through trees like the infamous A-320 airshow scene?

- All performance calculations regarding runway length and obstacle clearance in the climb are out the window.
 

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
Odd, I would think a W/S heat fail message like that would be inhibited on the takeoff roll anyway.

I've aborted for something stupid in the low speed regime (bag door open indicaion), but a low speed abort is not a huuuge deal.

Obviously In the high speed regime they shouldn't abort for anything other than fire, engine failure, loss of directional control, major structural failures, or maybe anti-ice fail when departing into icing conditions.

I say the easy way out would be to "guard" the thrust lever quadrant to prevent them from being advanced and tell tower ASAP "aborted takeoff". Go through your memory items and take it from there. Screw ups happen, and while an uncessary high speed abort *probably* won't hurt anybody, there will probably be questions that need to be answered...not to mention whatever needs to be done to the airplane maintenance wise. Under no circumstance would I permit the other pilot to continue the takeoff after an abort had been initiated. Telling the tower that you're aborting the takeoff should be one of the first things you do when you see those thrust levers come back or hear the word "abort". Having other people aware of the situation (in this case ATC) might dissuade them from trying to make a bad decision worse.
 

inside0ut

Well-Known Member
I dunno, me as the FO would sure as heck be reaching forward for the thrust levers yelling "REJECT" at the top of my lungs.
Totally agree.

My feet would be on the brakes and my hands grabbing the TL back yelling abort as loud as I could, and afterward asking them what they hell they were thinking.
 

mikecweb

Well-Known Member
Just throwing this out there.
The plane I fly has no Auto anything. An abort at that speed is more dangerous then just continuing at that point...with sufficient >4000ft rwy available.
Perfectly working airplane, I rather get it in the air then a high speed abort. Maybe I'm just a low time captain in an old simple jet but that's my first reaction.
 

ctab5060X

Well-Known Member
Just throwing this out there.
The plane I fly has no Auto anything. An abort at that speed is more dangerous then just continuing at that point...with sufficient >4000ft rwy available.
Perfectly working airplane, I rather get it in the air then a high speed abort. Maybe I'm just a low time captain in an old simple jet but that's my first reaction.
Yeah, but you have boxes...;)

Once you start the abort, commit to it. Don't second guess yourself...takes too long and burns up pavement quickly.

But I see what you are saying about the abort at that speed though. That is why I like briefing an "abort for any Master Warning below V1 or any indication the aircraft is unsafe or unable to fly." Sweet simple and too the point. Don't have to worry about making decisions based on Master Caution messages that way.
 

Nick

Well-Known Member
Second Takeoff Attempt

Just throwing this out there.
The plane I fly has no Auto anything. An abort at that speed is more dangerous then just continuing at that point...with sufficient >4000ft rwy available.
Perfectly working airplane, I rather get it in the air then a high speed abort. Maybe I'm just a low time captain in an old simple jet but that's my first reaction.
The real event here, though, is the attempt to takeoff from 80 knots during the abort.

Of course the captain did make the wrong decision to abort for a message saying the windshield heat failed, that is no argument.

But would it be safe, even in the plane you fly, to go up to 100 knots, deploy reverse thrust, speedbrakes, and use footbrakes, and then decelerating through 80 knots, try to turn all that around and takeoff again?
 
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