Airline family life expectations

[Beaker]

I have been working in aerospace R&D engineering for the past 10 years (since school) and am considering a career change. I have always been interested in flying professionally, so that is on the short list of options to consider. While I have private pilot certificate, I opted initially for an engineering career in part because of family life considerations. However, that career has had its own travel requirements, and as sitting in my office at midnight trying to think through intractable technical and managerial problems is not uncommon, I question my wisdom. Perhaps the airline life, with its more cut-and-dry boundaries between work and life, would actually be preferable. That is what I am trying to get a read on.

A few more relevant details about me. I am 34 with soon to be two children, and live in the DFW area where a number of airlines have bases. I am financially prudent and have managed the profit from my first 10 years well. I do not need to chase the biggest pay check, so pursuing low time lines or dropping trips, if such things are available, to maximize nights at home would be ok as far as the pocketbook is concerned. If the lifestyle came down to working a 4 day trip over every weekend, I think it would be hard to ask that of the family. 3 day trips with only 1 day touching the weekend starts to be a very different story. I am just trying to discern where reality is, and greatly appreciate any insight from the experienced people here.

 

[Andrew_Neal]

I'm not at the airlines yet, but I am in engineering as well - electrical/avionics. The same thoughts have gone through my mind while sitting at work. I appreciate the black and white nature of flying as opposed to engineering decisions, but most of the time, I enjoy both. It's my understanding that in your first several years as a new first officer, the schedule will be terrible. 5-day trips with 2 days off, weekends, holidays, etc. Obviously getting better with seniority. I've had the discussion with my wife (and we've agreed) that we can make the sacrifice for a couple years, for the greater benefit on the back end. I'm sure many of them are here, but most of the airline pilots I know at regionals or majors with any kind of seniority in their system... are able to bid a schedule they are happy with. Interested in following the discussion though. I've got 4 kids, myself.

 

[GypsyPilot]

I'm not at the airlines yet, but I am in engineering as well - electrical/avionics. The same thoughts have gone through my mind while sitting at work. I appreciate the black and white nature of flying as opposed to engineering decisions, but most of the time, I enjoy both. It's my understanding that in your first several years as a new first officer, the schedule will be terrible. 5-day trips with 2 days off, weekends, holidays, etc. Obviously getting better with seniority. I've had the discussion with my wife (and we've agreed) that we can make the sacrifice for a couple years, for the greater benefit on the back end. I'm sure many of them are here, but most of the airline pilots I know at regionals or majors with any kind of seniority in their system... are able to bid a schedule they are happy with. Interested in following the discussion though. I've got 4 kids, myself.

I never flew a 5 day trip in seven years at the regionals. Also, I had more time off than I ever did as an engineer.

I’m happily child free though, so can’t help you there. No doubt that would make a career transition tremendously more complicated.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I'm not at the airlines yet, but I am in engineering as well - electrical/avionics. The same thoughts have gone through my mind while sitting at work. I appreciate the black and white nature of flying as opposed to engineering decisions, but most of the time, I enjoy both. It's my understanding that in your first several years as a new first officer, the schedule will be terrible. 5-day trips with 2 days off, weekends, holidays, etc. Obviously getting better with seniority. I've had the discussion with my wife (and we've agreed) that we can make the sacrifice for a couple years, for the greater benefit on the back end. I'm sure many of them are here, but most of the airline pilots I know at regionals or majors with any kind of seniority in their system... are able to bid a schedule they are happy with. Interested in following the discussion though. I've got 4 kids, myself.

The aviation career QOL cycle is not linear. Every step forward also includes a step back. Upgrade for more money? Back to the junior guy at base generally. Move to a major? Junior FO again etc. mix in the risk of mergers and furloughs, QOL is not guaranteed. If you move into it with the expectation that you’ll do 5 years of suck, then be golden, you may be in for a suprise.

I also think that aviation is ripe for replacement by automation in the next 15-20 years ( if that) and a reducing in demand as the virtual space/ technology continues to grow, so I would be cautiously optimistic about a long career.

 

[GypsyPilot]

The aviation career QOL cycle is not linear. Every step forward also includes a step back. Upgrade for more money? Back to the junior guy at base generally. Move to a major? Junior FO again etc. mix in the risk of mergers and furloughs, QOL is not guaranteed. If you move into it with the expectation that you’ll do 5 years of suck, then be golden, you may be in for a suprise.

I also think that aviation is ripe for replacement by automation in the next 15-20 years ( if that) and a reducing in demand as the virtual space/ technology continues to grow, so I would be cautiously optimistic about a long career.

The step up to the legacies is pretty much an instant step up. A couple of places might be a paycut for the first year, but after that the pay and QOL is usually MUCH better than the previous job.

As far as automation goes, that’s a real tough thing to guess. Boeing and Airbus don’t even have anything on the drawing board for less than two pilot airplanes, and I can’t even imagine what it would take to get a less than two pilot airliner certified by the FAA. I’m 41, and I’d really be surprised if I was affected by it before I retire.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

The step up to the legacies is pretty much an instant step up. A couple of places might be a paycut for the first year, but after that the pay and QOL is usually MUCH better than the previous job.

As far as automation goes, that’s a real tough thing to guess. Boeing and Airbus don’t even have anything on the drawing board for less than two pilot airplanes, and I can’t even imagine what it would take to get a less than two pilot airliner certified by the FAA. I’m 41, and I’d really be surprised if I was affected by it before I retire.

Right now it’s an instant step up. 10 years ago those who had just moved to several of the majors were suddenly finding them self jobless. Just like those that were just hired 10 years before found them self’s furloughed after 9-11. Things being great now don’t mean they will be in 3,5,10 years - which is where the OP would be looking at the step up. It’s all cycles, but you see second career people who think it’s like a second career in a traditional market where QOL and Pay are linear. It “may” be, however typically it’s not, and a young family will be faced with many differing job related challenges over the next 30 years.


Boeing is very much interested in, working on, and developing pilotless aircraft. They purchased Aurora flight sciences a little over a year ago- explicitly for the development of automation and pilot replacement technology. They’ve clearly labeled it in their roadmap. I imagine we see a working testbed in the air in a decade at the latest. Boeing already has testbed simulators up and running.

Perhaps it’s aiming at military markets, where the human pilot is the limiting performance aspect currently, however we will see single pilot airplanes soon.

 

[Beaker]

Thank you for the responses so far. One thing I am curious is about how much control I would have over my schedule. When to chase the bigger airplane or upgrade and become a junior guy again seems to be a matter of personal choice and may be deferred, other than when getting that first TPIC. How available is the option of dropping trips to fly less / get paid less? Is that just senior guy stuff?

I work in technology and understand the comments about automation. Personally, I don't think it will be a reality for the commercial aviation market until I am looking to retire anyways. Not because it is impossible, just because of the time it takes to properly engineer and manufacture complex systems in safety critical applications.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Thank you for the responses so far. One thing I am curious is about how much control I would have over my schedule. When to chase the bigger airplane or upgrade and become a junior guy again seems to be a matter of personal choice and may be deferred, other than when getting that first TPIC. How available is the option of dropping trips to fly less / get paid less? Is that just senior guy stuff?

I work in technology and understand the comments about automation. Personally, I don't think it will be a reality for the commercial aviation market until I am looking to retire anyways. Not because it is impossible, just because of the time it takes to properly engineer and manufacture complex systems in safety critical applications.

When junior, you have literally zero control. You get your monthly bid, and sometimes can trade to make it work. Some shops will allow you to drop a trip, however dropping reserve is almost impossible to do. As you gain seniority, it becomes easier, however it can still be difficult. Your pay is generally based off a monthly guarantee. Most places will not let you drop a trip if it takes you below that hours mark (anywhere from 62-75 it seems). Generally you can’t trade to less than guarantee if you were over it as well). The airline doesn’t want to pay you for less utilization. I’m not really aware of any shop that will let you voluntarily take less pay for a month just to work less.

Chasing upgrade in your current shop is personal preference. I wouldn’t put off upgrade at a regional, however at a major, so long as your contract protects forced movements and furloughs by seniority, do whatever you like/ can afford.

Lots of guys put off upgrade for QOL.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Right now it’s an instant step up. 10 years ago those who had just moved to several of the majors were suddenly finding them self jobless. Just like those that were just hired 10 years before found them self’s furloughed after 9-11. Things being great now don’t mean they will be in 3,5,10 years - which is where the OP would be looking at the step up. It’s all cycles, but you see second career people who think it’s like a second career in a traditional market where QOL and Pay are linear. It “may” be, however typically it’s not, and a young family will be faced with many differing job related challenges over the next 30 years.


Boeing is very much interested in, working on, and developing pilotless aircraft. They purchased Aurora flight sciences a little over a year ago- explicitly for the development of automation and pilot replacement technology. They’ve clearly labeled it in their roadmap. I imagine we see a working testbed in the air in a decade at the latest. Boeing already has testbed simulators up and running.

Perhaps it’s aiming at military markets, where the human pilot is the limiting performance aspect currently, however we will see single pilot airplanes soon.

Soon? Soon to me is less than ten years. Single pilot airliners in ten years? Not gonna happen for a long list of reasons.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

While I used to agree with that- developments and news from Boeing NeXt, coupled with airlines and the FAA requesting funding from congress to study single pilot flight decks I firmly believe that the Aviation career will be radically different in 10,15 and 20 years.

I imagine that technology will shrink the scope of business travel- I simply do not see the market space expanding, and jobs will be replaced by automation.

I’m not saying it’s a bad job, or that jobs are going away, more that you can’t look back 30 years and expect that to carry for the next 30 years. Be careful with expectations of you want the transition from desk job to pilot job to be successful with a young family.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

While I used to agree with that- developments and news from Boeing NeXt, coupled with airlines and the FAA requesting funding from congress to study single pilot flight decks I firmly believe that the Aviation career will be radically different in 10,15 and 20 years.

I imagine that technology will shrink the scope of business travel- I simply do not see the market space expanding, and jobs will be replaced by automation.

I’m not saying it’s a bad job, or that jobs are going away, more that you can’t look back 30 years and expect that to carry for the next 30 years. Be careful with expectations of you want the transition from desk job to pilot job to be successful with a young family.

 

[Andrew_Neal]

I don't disagree with that. The desire is definitely there to develop the tech, even at their own (OEM) expense. I say that as an avionics engineer for a direct Boeing competitor. However, I think the focus is autonomous aircraft "management" more than simply eliminating jobs. I wouldn't disagree with the notion that 25 years from now you may not exclusively require pilots on the flight deck... but engineers and managers instead. I believe there's still a lot of flying left to be had, though.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

While I used to agree with that- developments and news from Boeing NeXt, coupled with airlines and the FAA requesting funding from congress to study single pilot flight decks I firmly believe that the Aviation career will be radically different in 10,15 and 20 years.

I imagine that technology will shrink the scope of business travel- I simply do not see the market space expanding, and jobs will be replaced by automation.

I’m not saying it’s a bad job, or that jobs are going away, more that you can’t look back 30 years and expect that to carry for the next 30 years. Be careful with expectations of you want the transition from desk job to pilot job to be successful with a young family.

 

[Inverted25]

While I used to agree with that- developments and news from Boeing NeXt, coupled with airlines and the FAA requesting funding from congress to study single pilot flight decks I firmly believe that the Aviation career will be radically different in 10,15 and 20 years.

I imagine that technology will shrink the scope of business travel- I simply do not see the market space expanding, and jobs will be replaced by automation.

I’m not saying it’s a bad job, or that jobs are going away, more that you can’t look back 30 years and expect that to carry for the next 30 years. Be careful with expectations of you want the transition from desk job to pilot job to be successful with a young family.

On the management side of the business I don’t see flying shrinking. We manage 15+ airplanes and the majority of our flying is pleasure not business. As automation advances these business owners will have more money due to reduced labor costs and do even more pleasure travel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

On the management side of the business I don’t see flying shrinking. We manage 15+ airplanes and the majority of our flying is pleasure not business. As automation advances these business owners will have more money due to reduced labor costs and do even more pleasure travel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. Where we’ll see the continued reductions is the business travel on the 121 side. Meetings which don’t require high level executives will continue to transition to the digital space.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

On the management side of the business I don’t see flying shrinking. We manage 15+ airplanes and the majority of our flying is pleasure not business. As automation advances these business owners will have more money due to reduced labor costs and do even more pleasure travel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. Where we’ll see the continued reductions is the business travel on the 121 side. Meetings which don’t require high level executives will continue to transition to the digital space.

 

[Beaker]

When junior, you have literally zero control. You get your monthly bid, and sometimes can trade to make it work. Some shops will allow you to drop a trip, however dropping reserve is almost impossible to do. As you gain seniority, it becomes easier, however it can still be difficult. Your pay is generally based off a monthly guarantee. Most places will not let you drop a trip if it takes you below that hours mark (anywhere from 62-75 it seems). Generally you can’t trade to less than guarantee if you were over it as well). The airline doesn’t want to pay you for less utilization. I’m not really aware of any shop that will let you voluntarily take less pay for a month just to work less.

Chasing upgrade in your current shop is personal preference. I wouldn’t put off upgrade at a regional, however at a major, so long as your contract protects forced movements and furloughs by seniority, do whatever you like/ can afford.

Lots of guys put off upgrade for QOL.

Thanks for the additional input. In summary, it's bound to suck at least sometimes, seniority helps, and it really all depends on the particular shop and situation you find yourself in. Hard to prognosticate beyond that. Does anyone who has been there, done that, have any anecdotal experience to share? Specifically those who left an involved desk job for aviation and are family focused.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Thanks for the additional input. In summary, it's bound to suck at least sometimes, seniority helps, and it really all depends on the particular shop and situation you find yourself in. Hard to prognosticate beyond that. Does anyone who has been there, done that, have any anecdotal experience to share? Specifically those who left an involved desk job for aviation and are family focused.

Well.. I left my aviation job (121) for a desk job when I discovered we were having kids #2 and 3 simultaneously. Worked a desk for 3 years, got back into aviation managing a flight department so I have a small amount of control.

My current job is an outlier though, in that we pretty much run a tues-thurs schedule with pilots in rotation so I average about 8 days of flying a month.

 

[Beaker]

One way for me to approach this, is to orchestrate a reduction to part time engineering work, and use my new found time to train, build time, and see what I see at the local airport. Maybe similar opportunities are available.

 

[Roger Roger]

I find it interesting that there are very few current 121 pilots replying to this thread.