You're the FO...

[BajtheJino]

After I cover myself by getting on the CVR calling for the go-around. I would help him land the plane. At 100 feet if he wants to land the plane there is not a lot I can do but help him land the plane.

Yep.
Youre not going to get control from the guy so why start a fight so close to the ground? As long as you stay on gs/loc youre going to get a landing out of it at some point and time so just try to stay safe.

Besides if a guy is on a mission to land below mins what good is calling My Controls going to do or announcing a GA over the radio? The Capt. is going to fight you on the controls and if anything you're actions are going to cause the crash-not the dreaded Below Minimums!

 

[CFI4life]

So what's the real question here?

Is it a matter of whether or not the Captain's fully lucid and hearing you?
... or that the Captain is just being a tool and ignoring you?

The question is only a general hypothetical. To discuss the different variables for the different scenario's. Either way, you have good points and glad to see there isn't any flaming going on! keep it up.

 

[jtrain609]

If he's on the controls and actually flying and won't go around, I'd be keying up the mic and telling the controller we're going around. Whether the captain continues or not at this point is up to him, and the chances of getting hurt when he ducked below minimums while you have a perfectly normal runway in front of you are slim. In any event I'd call off the trip as soon as we were on the ground safely. I've got no interest in flying with clowns like that.

Now, that being said, I've never flown with a clown like that. I think the more likely situation is that the skipper keeled over and nobody is flying the airplane. If that's the case, then I'll take the plane and go around.

Pretty straight forward, but the most important thing that people have been saying here is that YOU DO NOT WANT TO WRESTLE FOR THE CONTROLS!

 

[dasleben]

Yep.
Youre not going to get control from the guy so why start a fight so close to the ground? As long as you stay on gs/loc youre going to get a landing out of it at some point and time so just try to stay safe.

Besides if a guy is on a mission to land below mins what good is calling My Controls going to do or announcing a GA over the radio? The Capt. is going to fight you on the controls and if anything you're actions are going to cause the crash-not the dreaded Below Minimums!

I agree that fighting for the controls is not smart at that altitude. However, I don't think I've ever seen someone determined to go below minimums to the point where they'd continue after you called the missed over the radio. Anytime I've seen someone duck below minimums, it's the kinda thing where you hit minimums and say "Well...I guess it's about that time..." and slowly start reaching for the throttles. By that point you're 100-150'.

Or so I've heard.

I fully believe calling for the missed would get his/her attention enough to initiate the missed. If not, well, he's going to have some s'plainin' to do when he lands the plane after you announced the missed to ATC. His call.

 

[ppragman]

If he's on the controls and actually flying and won't go around, I'd be keying up the mic and telling the controller we're going around. Whether the captain continues or not at this point is up to him, and the chances of getting hurt when he ducked below minimums while you have a perfectly normal runway in front of you are slim. In any event I'd call off the trip as soon as we were on the ground safely. I've got no interest in flying with clowns like that.

Now, that being said, I've never flown with a clown like that. I think the more likely situation is that the skipper keeled over and nobody is flying the airplane. If that's the case, then I'll take the plane and go around.

Pretty straight forward, but the most important thing that people have been saying here is that YOU DO NOT WANT TO WRESTLE FOR THE CONTROLS!

Guys go below mins every single day. It probably happens over 1000 times per week. Its about a lot of things, making it home, making it in, being a "company man" (even though busting mins will be really bad for the company if you auger in and they go out of business), a sense of machismo, the desire for a challenge, or in some cases, the guys just don't give a damn, and will continue just to continue. Some times its laziness, I've known guys who don't go missed because they'd rather not truck back out and hold.

I knew one guy with over 20,000hrs who'd never gone missed other than for recurrent. Not once. He just straight up didn't care, and wanted to make it in every time.

I know guys who just know the terrain so well that they say they're, "setting their own terrain clearance..." whatever the hell that means. They say, "ehh, I don't think 1000' at the MDA is low enough, hell, you're clearing the ridge by 500' their, whereas if you go down to 700' you can keep trucking, and you've still got a couple hundred feet to spare, JUST DON'T DEVIATE TO THE LEFT OF COURSE WHATEVER YOU DO!" I don't get off on that sort of thing, its spooky, but ehh, whatever, guys do it daily.

I doubt that a captain passing out, or becoming incapacitated has anything to do with it.

 

[Aviator1988]

The question is, can you log it as PIC?

And just for the record, I would backhand the guy first while yelling "MORTAAALLLLL COMBAAATTTT!!!!" and then I would take the plane for the go around.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

 

[jtrain609]

Guys go below mins every single day. It probably happens over 1000 times per week. Its about a lot of things, making it home, making it in, being a "company man" (even though busting mins will be really bad for the company if you auger in and they go out of business), a sense of machismo, the desire for a challenge, or in some cases, the guys just don't give a damn, and will continue just to continue. Some times its laziness, I've known guys who don't go missed because they'd rather not truck back out and hold.

I knew one guy with over 20,000hrs who'd never gone missed other than for recurrent. Not once. He just straight up didn't care, and wanted to make it in every time.

I know guys who just know the terrain so well that they say they're, "setting their own terrain clearance..." whatever the hell that means. They say, "ehh, I don't think 1000' at the MDA is low enough, hell, you're clearing the ridge by 500' their, whereas if you go down to 700' you can keep trucking, and you've still got a couple hundred feet to spare, JUST DON'T DEVIATE TO THE LEFT OF COURSE WHATEVER YOU DO!" I don't get off on that sort of thing, its spooky, but ehh, whatever, guys do it daily.

I doubt that a captain passing out, or becoming incapacitated has anything to do with it.

Right, so back down here in reality land, where companies are not staffed by cowboys, at a part 121 carrier you go around when you hit minimums. If you divert, you divert. I have never flown with a captain, nor have I heard of a captain at my company who makes a plan to bust minimums. If an FO saw somebody do that, they'd probably get one warning shot across the bow while the FO walked off the trip, and the next time an FO did it the stories would start coming out.

Oh, and; THE ENTIRE WORLD IS NOT ALASKA.

 

[ppragman]

Right, so back down here in reality land, where companies are not staffed by cowboys, at a part 121 carrier you go around when you hit minimums. If you divert, you divert. I have never flown with a captain, nor have I heard of a captain at my company who makes a plan to bust minimums.

Oh, and; THE ENTIRE WORLD IS NOT ALASKA.

At a 121 carrier, but guess what, most of aviation isn't 121. I've flown with them, and heard of them. You seem to see the world through some particularly rose colored glasses if you think that guys aren't busting mins everyday. Its way more common than you'd think, in both "lower forty eight guys," and "alaska cowboys." I'd venture a guess that its more common down south than up north frankly, because there's more stuff for us to hit up here. Obstacles that we can smack into tends to instill a pretty decent fear of death, or at least it does in me. Did you read the "synthetic vision below mins thread?"

But I guess the 1500TT you have, the 17 months, 1 week and 3 days since your furlough from a regional airline after working as a flight instructor and the fact that you frequent jetcareers entitles you to comment upon things which apparently you know everything about.

 

[jtrain609]

Whatever you say.

 

[Cannon]

But I guess the 1500TT you have, the 17 months, 1 week and 3 days since your furlough from a regional airline after working as a flight instructor and the fact that you frequent jetcareers entitles you to comment upon things which apparently you know everything about.

Maybe. Maybe not. But he happens to be right.

 

[mikecweb]

Whatever you say.

I'm actually starting to see what you were saying how they'll never be happy.

 

[dasleben]

Oh, and; THE ENTIRE WORLD IS NOT ALASKA.

It ain't just Alaska.

 

[ppragman]

Maybe. Maybe not. But he happens to be right.

Ehh, I doubt it. Most of the really crazy reg busting wildcards came up from down south. 121 is a different world, but its not the only world. Guys do that kind of crap all the time, it sucks, I don't do it, and I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There's a lot more cowboy out there than most people would care to acknowledge.

By the way, when your profile says speedbuggy, do you mean you're a mokulele guy?

 

[mikecweb]

Ehh, I doubt it. Most of the really crazy reg busting wildcards came up from down south. 121 is a different world, but its not the only world. Guys do that kind of crap all the time, it sucks, I don't do it, and I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There's a lot more cowboy out there than most people would care to acknowledge.

By the way, when your profile says speedbuggy, do you mean you're a mokulele guy?

If you don't do it then how do you know?
Stories? 89.3% of aviation stories contain false information.

 

[ppragman]

If you don't do it then how do you know?
Stories? 89.3% of aviation stories contain false information.

Lol, I've talked to crews that just busted mins and were braggin' about it. I flew with captains who had never ever gone missed, and argued with them about the merits of that philosophy. I've gone missed, then had airplanes behind me make it in when it was 600RVR. I've been past the MAP and had a squall move in cover the runway (that was with me as PNF) and had to fly a non-standard approach because flying the published missed would put me into Mt. Ballyhoo. Don't believe me if you don't want to, but I don't do that garbage, but I know its done, and I've seen it done.

I'd bet that you've seen some wildcards in your freight dawg days.

 

[jtrain609]

It ain't just Alaska.

Did you seriously see captains busting minimums at XJT?

Or are you talking about doing it at Cape?

 

[dasleben]

Did you seriously see captains busting minimums at XJT?

Or are you talking about doing it at Cape?

Actually Cape's safety culture is really along the same lines as any 121 airline. It might happen here or there, but it's not the norm. The company doesn't condone it or push us in any way. However, the "other" HYA-ACK operator routinely manages to get in even if we can't. We joke that ACK's RVR reports are brought to you by the Nantucket Chamber of Commerce, but these guys used to push it. I haven't flown in ACK in about a year and a half now, so maybe they've gotten better.

XJT, nah, I never saw it happen there. I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen from time to time, though. Getting distracted and accidentally going an extra couple seconds past DA does wonders for your ability to pick up the lights. Or so I've heard.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

But I guess the 1500TT you have, the 17 months, 1 week and 3 days since your furlough from a regional airline after working as a flight instructor and the fact that you frequent jetcareers entitles you to comment upon things which apparently you know everything about.

I don't agree with anything you said... but I don't care who you are -- that's FUNNY! :laff: :clap:

 

[jtrain609]

I don't agree with anything you said... but I don't care who you are -- that's FUNNY! :laff: :clap:

There's a decade and a few missing steps in there, but I agree!

 

[Crism]

Actually Cape's safety culture is really along the same lines as any 121 airline. It might happen here or there, but it's not the norm. The company doesn't condone it or push us in any way. However, the "other" HYA-ACK operator routinely manages to get in even if we can't. We joke that ACK's RVR reports are brought to you by the Nantucket Chamber of Commerce, but these guys used to push it. I haven't flown in ACK in about a year and a half now, so maybe they've gotten better.

XJT, nah, I never saw it happen there. I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen from time to time, though. Getting distracted and accidentally going an extra couple seconds past DA does wonders for your ability to pick up the lights. Or so I've heard.

Oh ACK....ACK, ACK, ACK. I know one guy who was flying there a few years back (not anymore) when I would work the ramp. He'd be telling us rampie/private pilot guys about the tower controllers knowing not to call the minimums until they were past the FAF just so they could go "take a look."

He told one story (bragging a little) about hitting minimums and just kept on going. Evidentally he had just enough time to cut the power and give it a little back pressure before the mains hit. Tower goes "Cair you land?" because they can't see anything from the tower.

Then there's the days where they've got a quartering tailwind coming down the pipe, gusting to 30, and it's STILL 1/2sm FG. Some of the weirdest weather I've ever seen.

Lots of good stories from my ramp days.