What's ALPA doing for the "little guys"?

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
I've heard the statement more than once: ALPA only cares about the "big airplane pilots" and the senior pilots at the Legacy carriers.

Not so.

This is going through the works in ALPA at Eagle, and has gotten the green light so far as I know.

Download, read, and enjoy.

This bodes well for those of us making a career in the so-called "regionals"!

It's ALPA's Fee For Departure Strategic Plan.
(see attached .PDF)
 

Attachments

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Interesting side note...

ALPA has facilitated this, but airlines from other Unions (and no union) are on board with this too.
 

ifrcfi

Well-Known Member
Action speaks louder than words. I remember reading about the fee for departure task force when I received my first ALPA mag., years ago. A good idea but it will take massive amounts of leadership to make this work. Mainline pilot support would also be necessary. Who would set minimums for hiring? How would the flow throw work between airlines?

Somewhere and sometime a pilot group will have to draw a line in the sand to avoid more of the Mesa/Freedom and TSA/Go Jet scenarios. How would the SkyWest pilot group or CHQ./Republic/Shuttle America be incorporated into this? Tons of questions but I am not sure there are any easy answers.

On a side note I am not interested in starting a GO Jet/TSA debate but would rather stick with the original topic.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. More banter from the union trying to justify their existence. The real problem with the regionals is the fact that they exist at all. For the love of all that is holy, can somebody give me one good reason why the regionals even exist. The ONLY reason that they exist is to lowball mainline. That is it and that is all. There is no reason that a mainline pilot can't fly a turbo prop or an RJ.

What we really need to do is try to get ALL of mainline flying back under one tent. Until that happens management will continue to whipsaw one regional against the next and give away mainline routes to E-Jets. Can you imagine how nice it would be to only have to work your way up one seniority list.

Now I am in a bad mood. I am going to go kick my neighbors dog.
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. More banter from the union trying to justify their existence. The real problem with the regionals is the fact that they exist at all. For the love of all that is holy, can somebody give me one good reason why the regionals even exist. The ONLY reason that they exist is to lowball mainline. That is it and that is all. There is no reason that a mainline pilot can't fly a turbo prop or an RJ.

What we really need to do is try to get ALL of mainline flying back under one tent. Until that happens management will continue to whipsaw one regional against the next and give away mainline routes to E-Jets. Can you imagine how nice it would be to only have to work your way up one seniority list.

Now I am in a bad mood. I am going to go kick my neighbors dog.
Until that happens, we need to stop the regional operators from lowballing mainline by raising the standards we have where we are now.

I agree with you- one brand, one operating certificate.

We need to plug the holes in the boat or we'll just bail water forever, true.
While we work on plugging those holes, bailing a little water so the boat doesn't sink seems like a good idea.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Until that happens, we need to stop the regional operators from lowballing mainline by raising the standards we have where we are now.

I agree with you- one brand, one operating certificate.

We need to plug the holes in the boat or we'll just bail water forever, true.
While we work on plugging those holes, bailing a little water so the boat doesn't sink seems like a good idea.
What good does it do to waste time trying to make the regionals better. There will always be some lowball non union company come along and volunteer to do the same flying for less. Look at Colgan. They came to CAL and are flying 70+ seat aircraft for a lot less than Expressjet is flying 50 seat aircraft. Colgan guys are not going to complain because hey, "we are growing". That just means a Colgan guy will be able to upgrade and build some turbine PIC time right. Never mind the fact that he is now doing former Xjet flying for thousands of dollars a year less. Then again the Expressjet flying should have been CAL flying all along.

Alpa would be serving us better to try and regain scope and rid the industry of low balling regionals. Would you rather work for a regional or a major? The more regional jobs there are out there, the less mainline jobs there are out there. The only people who benefit from that are the management.
 

VF-213

New Member
I'm not a member of ALPA (APA), or for that matter a ardent union guy.... I get paid... I'm for the most part happy.

If someone would overlook my ignorance and perhaps enlighten me some.

Its my understanding that regional guys comprise most of ALPA (by numbers) shouldn't the union be making your wages/working conditions their primary focus?

I've heard that the majority of dollars funding ALPA come in from mainline guys so in many ways does ALPA not work counterproductively to regional guys?

If ALPA wants to engage in "pattern bargaining" (or at least I read it that way) much akin to auto workers... what took them so long?

Most of the guys kicking a can on the street still looking for work weren't ALPA guys (APA)... does that make a difference?

How do you fix wage gaps...for example on the 757 there is $42.00 wage gap between carriers.... doesn't ability to pay come into this?

Personally, I've seem things go downhill quickly from the 'fat' contract the UAL guys signed '00(?) it seems ALL pilots collectively are negotiating not to enhance contracts but to simply keep what they have
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
What good does it do to waste time trying to make the regionals better. There will always be some lowball non union company come along and volunteer to do the same flying for less. Look at Colgan. They came to CAL and are flying 70+ seat aircraft for a lot less than Expressjet is flying 50 seat aircraft. Colgan guys are not going to complain because hey, "we are growing". That just means a Colgan guy will be able to upgrade and build some turbine PIC time right. Never mind the fact that he is now doing former Xjet flying for thousands of dollars a year less. Then again the Expressjet flying should have been CAL flying all along.

Alpa would be serving us better to try and regain scope and rid the industry of low balling regionals. Would you rather work for a regional or a major? The more regional jobs there are out there, the less mainline jobs there are out there. The only people who benefit from that are the management.
Go read the thread I posted: Regional Airline Pilots- Welcome to the Rest of Your Career.

Regionals ARE the new majors. If, as you stated, 'Colgan' guys (or whoever) are undercutting other places and don't care because they'll 'upgrade and get out' they're wrong. Time to rethink that whole paradigm- we're not going to 'Get up..'. Maybe we'll 'get out', but that won't be in the fashion they intended it.

If we establish a union, industry wide baseline, nobody can undercut that one. Ya follow?

We've got to start somewhere. Whining that "it'll never work so I don't care" solves nothing, no matter what happens.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Go read the thread I posted: Regional Airline Pilots- Welcome to the Rest of Your Career.

Regionals ARE the new majors. If, as you stated, 'Colgan' guys (or whoever) are undercutting other places and don't care because they'll 'upgrade and get out' they're wrong. Time to rethink that whole paradigm- we're not going to 'Get up..'. Maybe we'll 'get out', but that won't be in the fashion they intended it.

If we establish a union, industry wide baseline, nobody can undercut that one. Ya follow?

We've got to start somewhere. Whining that "it'll never work so I don't care" solves nothing, no matter what happens.
I still say we need to get rid of "regionals" period. They only serve to aide management in screwing pilots.

Oh I follow ya. Still not sure how ALPA would stop a non union low baller from coming in and ruining your plans. Back to my point. Regionals don't need to exist. We need to kill them.
 

Velocipede

New Member
What good does it do to waste time trying to make the regionals better.
YGTBSM. Regional pilots are just as important to ALPA as any other pilot group.

There will always be some lowball non union company come along and volunteer to do the same flying for less. Look at Colgan. They came to CAL and are flying 70+ seat aircraft for a lot less than Expressjet is flying 50 seat aircraft.
Once again, unfair. You blame Colgan wages for undercutting XJT. The fact of the matter is the Q400 is much more efficient than your 50 seat RJ gas suckers. The 50 seat RJ is dead. And anyone flying them better get a clue and recognize that their jobs are on the way out with their gas sucking airplanes.

Colgan guys are not going to complain because hey, "we are growing". That just means a Colgan guy will be able to upgrade and build some turbine PIC time right.
I guess you missed the posts about the Colgan organizing efforts. They'll be ALPA or IBT soon. Then where is you argument?

Never mind the fact that he is now doing former Xjet flying for thousands of dollars a year less. Then again the Expressjet flying should have been CAL flying all along.
So, in essence, your position is that its OK for XJT to take flying from mainline, but Colgan taking XJT flying is wrong? Pot, kettle, black. Sound that familiar?

Alpa would be serving us better to try and regain scope and rid the industry of low balling regionals. Would you rather work for a regional or a major? The more regional jobs there are out there, the less mainline jobs there are out there. The only people who benefit from that are the management.
Here, I agree. All CPA flying should be mainline flying. But, the problem is that ALPA is run by individual MECs, not National. It was the individual MECs that decided they didn't want to fly the "small" jets. If they had kept the RJs as the entry level positions, then the story would be different.

Grudgingly, I have to tip my hat to jetBlue here. They've kept the Ejet flying in house, though paying a crappy wage for a 100 seat jet. That's what the legacies should have done 20 years ago. Then, there would be NO regional airlines. Period.
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
My vote is to kill the regionals. Mainline needs to take ALL scope back. 19 seats and up!
 

JA Yawd Bwoy

Well-Known Member
My vote is to kill the regionals. Mainline needs to take ALL scope back. 19 seats and up!
Don't you work for one?

Wouldn't that mean that you would have to be an instructor forever before you even got to fly a ERJ/CRJ?, which would cause too many instructors, which would cause flight schools to only have a certain amount, which would result in some pilots not being able to be a flight instructor, which would result in some pilots not being able to become a CFI, correct?
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
YGTBSM. Regional pilots are just as important to ALPA as any other pilot group.



Once again, unfair. You blame Colgan wages for undercutting XJT. The fact of the matter is the Q400 is much more efficient than your 50 seat RJ gas suckers. The 50 seat RJ is dead. And anyone flying them better get a clue and recognize that their jobs are on the way out with their gas sucking airplanes.



I guess you missed the posts about the Colgan organizing efforts. They'll be ALPA or IBT soon. Then where is you argument?




So, in essence, your position is that its OK for XJT to take flying from mainline, but Colgan taking XJT flying is wrong? Pot, kettle, black. Sound that familiar?



Here, I agree. All CPA flying should be mainline flying. But, the problem is that ALPA is run by individual MECs, not National. It was the individual MECs that decided they didn't want to fly the "small" jets. If they had kept the RJs as the entry level positions, then the story would be different.

Grudgingly, I have to tip my hat to jetBlue here. They've kept the Ejet flying in house, though paying a crappy wage for a 100 seat jet. That's what the legacies should have done 20 years ago. Then, there would be NO regional airlines. Period.

Wow Velo. You missed my point on pretty much everything. It doesn't matter if Colgan becomes unionized tomorrow. They still make sub standard wages for the size of aircraft they fly. This isn't about Colgan though. If managment can put 2 Q's on a given flight @ cptn $53 per hr and F.O $21 for a total of $148 per flight hr to haul 148 people orrrrrrr one mainline crew @ cptn $150 and F.O $90 per flight hr for a total of $240, who are the gonna go with?

I could give a #### about the survival of Expressjet or any other regional for that matter. The airlines I named are only examples. Fill in the blank with the names of your choosing. The point is regionals are poison to mainline wages. They lower the bar pure and simple.

Trying to set a fixed contract that all union pilots will work by will only work until ANY non union carrier shows up and ruins you plan. The solution to that problem is to keep all mainline flying in house. It was a huge mistake and a glorious display of arrogance for any carrier to turn away smaller aircraft. We need to un#### that little problem now rather than waste our time on a band aide for regional contracts that will never work in the long run anyway.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Don't you work for one?

Wouldn't that mean that you would have to be an instructor forever before you even got to fly a ERJ/CRJ?, which would cause too many instructors, which would cause flight schools to only have a certain amount, which would result in some pilots not being able to be a flight instructor, which would result in some pilots not being able to become a CFI, correct?
No that means people won't sit on a regional seniority list for six years or so and then have to start all over at the bottom of a legacy list.

If you have to instruct for a while or fly checks or whatever then so be it. Those jobs are in no direct competition for legacy wages. The lowest of the low regional does affect the top legacy carriers wages.
 

BajtheJino

I'm looking at you.
Regionals don't need to exist. We need to kill them.
Blasphemer-Outcast-Unclean. Get ye hence foul demon! How dare you talk down on the Colgan or any regional for that matter. I'd do this job for free. I love flying. Chicks dig me, too.*


*Actually they don't. I think it's because I drink too muck and don't bathe.
 

JA Yawd Bwoy

Well-Known Member
No that means people won't sit on a regional seniority list for six years or so and then have to start all over at the bottom of a legacy list.

If you have to instruct for a while or fly checks or whatever then so be it. Those jobs are in no direct competition for legacy wages. The lowest of the low regional does affect the top legacy carriers wages.
True, I also forgot the fact that there is still cargo and charter/fractional operations still out there, my bad!;):)
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
The point is regionals are poison to mainline wages. They lower the bar pure and simple.
Yes and no. In some cases it's actually the other way around. At PSA, there has been a back and forth with management about rates to fly a CRJ900 for over 2 years now. The problem is, if you take a natural progression from our 200 rate to our 700 rate to a 900 rate (by using the number of seats) the proposed 900 rate ends up being higher than the current mainline EMB190 rate. So, in this case, it's actually the mainline rate which is hurting the regional rates.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
Yes and no. In some cases it's actually the other way around. At PSA, there has been a back and forth with management about rates to fly a CRJ900 for over 2 years now. The problem is, if you take a natural progression from our 200 rate to our 700 rate to a 900 rate (by using the number of seats) the proposed 900 rate ends up being higher than the current mainline EMB190 rate. So, in this case, it's actually the mainline rate which is hurting the regional rates.
You guys will never get what you deserve as long as U.S airways can just pay someone else 60 bucks an hour to fly the same plane. As for what mainline flies them for; they should be ashamed of what they get. I am sure they want to up their wages, but the regionals are always going to undercut them somehow.
 

Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
I still say we need to get rid of "regionals" period. They only serve to aide management in screwing pilots.

Oh I follow ya. Still not sure how ALPA would stop a non union low baller from coming in and ruining your plans. Back to my point. Regionals don't need to exist. We need to kill them.
The "Getting rid of the regionals, or put them back to where they belong" argument no longer holds water, I'm afraid. Read that document! AMR flying has 37% of it done by 'regionals'. DAL flying has 50% done by REGIONAL OPERATORS.

We're here to stay, however good or bad that appears.

Now, like I said before- before we can raise the roof on our collective careers, we have to lay a solid base foundation so management can't cut the floor out from underneath us.

.. and frankly.. I don't mean to be overly critical of you on this- but just because *you* can't see how someone would accomplish something doesn't mean that *they* can't see it either.

Getting ahead as a pilot in this industry cannot be done by analyzing what is 'now'. You have to have some vision and look ahead to see 'what will be'.
 

ifrcfi

Well-Known Member
Interesting posts. However, I don't feel many of the mainline MEC's are interested in regaining scope. Look at the new Delta/NW contract. Further relaxation of scope, authorization of more 76 seat jet flying. Keeping that in house didn't seem to be one of the larger or more popular issues. What is further interesting is that no one has proposed how to solve these issues. From a mainline standpoint how do you regain what is lost? Or from a regional standpoint what is the plan to prevent further whipsawing? The original post had great macro level discussions but no real clear cut plan.

For what it is worth I would much rather see one scope across a brand, or one pilot group per brand. However, aren't we kind of past the point of no return?
 
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