What's ALPA doing for the "little guys"?

Look at the new Delta/NW contract. Further relaxation of scope, authorization of more 76 seat jet flying.


Okay, I've now heard that one both ways. I've heard scope was tightened on the 76 seat flying, and now I've heard it was relaxed. Who's got a copy of the TA, 'cause I haven't seen it yet. I'm interested to know which way it's actually going....
 
This is the best I could find for a Monday. Obviously I don't fly for Delta, so someone who does might have a much better or current source, ie the TA. The point is anything more than one 76 seater not at mainline is too much. I think we all agree on that.



Permitted Aircraft Types now includes 255, 51 to 70 seat RJ’s (up from 200) and 120, 71 to 76 seat RJ’s (up from 30).

The number of 76 seat jets may be increased on a 3 to 1 ratio for every aircraft added above a mainline base fleet number.
 
Still not too accurate. That "30" number is a bit misleading, especially considering Mesaba and Compass put together already have more than that. They haven't even finished taking deliveries of their orders as far as I know. So, that 30 is assuming JUST Delta, not Delta and Northwest. Would be silly to just have the Delta numbers and have to ditch the 76 seaters that Northwest already had. A better resolution would be to move the 76 seaters to mainline, but unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime soon.


120 76 seaters once you include Compass, Mesaba, Pinnacle, Skywest, Comair, Shuttle America and the ones formerly flown by Freedom might come out to being just what's already in service or on order.
 
This is the best I could find for a Monday. Obviously I don't fly for Delta, so someone who does might have a much better or current source, ie the TA. The point is anything more than one 76 seater not at mainline is too much. I think we all agree on that.



Permitted Aircraft Types now includes 255, 51 to 70 seat RJ’s (up from 200) and 120, 71 to 76 seat RJ’s (up from 30).

The number of 76 seat jets may be increased on a 3 to 1 ratio for every aircraft added above a mainline base fleet number.

Of course the number of rjs allowed went up from the orginal Delta contract because they had to make room for all of NWA's regional planes.

As for the 120 76 seaters, here's where it gets REAL interesting:

Compass - 36
Mesaba - 36
Pinnacle - 16
ex-Freedom - 14
Comair - 14
Republic - 16
SkyWest - 21


TOTAL=153!!

Compass pilots, I would like for you to meet the New Delta pilot group:D
 
Darn you beat me to it. I woulld have to agree. Without racking my brain and doing some simple research I am all ready up to 125, without adding Compass. So it appears we have all ready surpassed the 120 number. I guess with the Delta/Northwest mainline combination the 3 to 1 ratio kicks in. What that number is, I have no idea. Again either way it is too many.
 
Compass 175's were grandfathered into the JWPA, so they don't count. towards the 120 76 seat a/c.
 
Even more interesting, just messed with some numbers and found a big hole,

We know we've already maxed out the 76 seaters so 255-120=135

51-70 Seat aircraft
ASA - 39
Comair - 15
Skywest - 10

TOTAL-64

255-(120+64)=71

Even if you subtract Compass you still have 35 planes worth of growth at the regional level.

I'm predicting post merger New Delta announces an RFP for 40-70 Q400 flying out of all bases.
 
Compass 175's were grandfathered into the JWPA, so they don't count. towards the 120 76 seat a/c.

I'm hearing different.

I was told the Compass 175s were given an exemption because they exceeded the MAX TO weight limit for 76 seat aircraft under the JWPA but still counted toward 120 seat a/c.

I hearing conflicting stories on the Shuttle America 175s. Some say they are all in violation of contract due to weight and some say only 3 of them are out of 16 175s. I don't know how they know since all the 175s haven't been delivered yet:D
 
I don't think turbo props count. And as sad as it as, I don't think we have maxed out the 76 seaters, with the 3:1 ratio and a Delta/Northwest combo of mainline aircraft.

Was Compass grandfathered due to the flow through?
 
I don't think turbo props count. And as sad as it as, I don't think we have maxed out the 76 seaters, with the 3:1 ratio and a Delta/Northwest combo of mainline aircraft.

Was Compass grandfathered due to the flow through?

The contract says The number of 76 seat jets may be increased on a 3 to 1 ratio for every aircraft added above a mainline base fleet number.

So 3 to 1 will probably not come into effect until 787s start showing up. Or until we find out whatever the mainline base fleet number is:D
 
The "Getting rid of the regionals, or put them back to where they belong" argument no longer holds water, I'm afraid. Read that document! AMR flying has 37% of it done by 'regionals'. DAL flying has 50% done by REGIONAL OPERATORS.

We're here to stay, however good or bad that appears.

Now, like I said before- before we can raise the roof on our collective careers, we have to lay a solid base foundation so management can't cut the floor out from underneath us.

.. and frankly.. I don't mean to be overly critical of you on this- but just because *you* can't see how someone would accomplish something doesn't mean that *they* can't see it either.

Getting ahead as a pilot in this industry cannot be done by analyzing what is 'now'. You have to have some vision and look ahead to see 'what will be'.

I do have a vision. My vision is to see regionals disappear. I don't want ALPA to waste their time trying to polish the turd that is the regional airline industry. It seems you are convinced we can't ever drive that Mercedes so we just ought to slap a new coat of paint and some shiny spinner wheels on that Chevy Citation instead. I believe we can although over time phase out the regionals.

With your logic Southwest and Jetblue pilots ought to just give up and ##### out their flying to the little guys. Kudos to them for not being like everyone else.
 
I do have a vision. My vision is to see regionals disappear. I don't want ALPA to waste their time trying to polish the turd that is the regional airline industry. It seems you are convinced we can't ever drive that Mercedes so we just ought to slap a new coat of paint and some shiny spinner wheels on that Chevy Citation instead. I believe we can although over time phase out the regionals.

With your logic Southwest and Jetblue pilots ought to just give up and ##### out their flying to the little guys. Kudos to them for not being like everyone else.

Your personal vision is not what I meant. You have to base your outlook of the industry on some kind of reality.

Southwest and JetBlue do not belong in this discussion. Southwest's corporate philosophy completely sidesteps the issue. JetBlue has avoided the issue by paying their pilots ridiculously low wages per industry average regardless.

I might work for a regional, but I don't clean cabins like JetBlue pilots. I didn't work as hard as I have to pick up garbage for free.
 
It doesn't matter if Colgan becomes unionized tomorrow. They still make sub standard wages for the size of aircraft they fly.


Actually, Colgan has industry leading rates on the Beech 1900 for Captains and First Officers.

Why don't you channel some of the attitude you have displayed in a few threads in the proper direction. You have the phone number for your ALPA LEC? I am SURE they are looking for hard working volunteers to try to make things better. You shouldn't be complaining about something if you are not part of the solution.
 
Actually, Colgan has industry leading rates on the Beech 1900 for Captains and First Officers.

Why don't you channel some of the attitude you have displayed in a few threads in the proper direction. You have the phone number for your ALPA LEC? I am SURE they are looking for hard working volunteers to try to make things better. You shouldn't be complaining about something if you are not part of the solution.

Looks like you and Velo missed the big picture. My point was not about any one regional. I think I made that pretty clear.

I am pretty sure if I went to my ALPA rep at my company and told them to help me rub my company and every other regional out, that they might not go along.

What needs to be done is the Legacy carriers need to to take back their scope when they renew their contracts. Another idea I would be all for is to just staple the guys at the regionals to the bottom of their respective legacys' seniority list. That would cause a whole lot of other issues however.

By the way. Good luck with getting some representation over at Colgan. I wish you all the best.
 
Looks like you and Velo missed the big picture. My point was not about any one regional. I think I made that pretty clear.

I am pretty sure if I went to my ALPA rep at my company and told them to help me rub my company and every other regional out, that they might not go along.

What needs to be done is the Legacy carriers need to to take back their scope when they renew their contracts. Another idea I would be all for is to just staple the guys at the regionals to the bottom of their respective legacys' seniority list. That would cause a whole lot of other issues however.

By the way. Good luck with getting some representation over at Colgan. I wish you all the best.

No we have not missed the big picture.

You read what ALPA is doing with the 'Fee for Departure' ALPA Carriers?

Seriously you might want to give your rep a call. They are already working on something.
 
this is good to see. alot of the stuff they are planning are things you constantly hear guys complaining about. i hope most of this passes, and some positive change is brought to the regional industry.
 
Looks like you and Velo missed the big picture. My point was not about any one regional. I think I made that pretty clear.

I am pretty sure if I went to my ALPA rep at my company and told them to help me rub my company and every other regional out, that they might not go along.

What needs to be done is the Legacy carriers need to to take back their scope when they renew their contracts. Another idea I would be all for is to just staple the guys at the regionals to the bottom of their respective legacys' seniority list. That would cause a whole lot of other issues however.

By the way. Good luck with getting some representation over at Colgan. I wish you all the best.



I don't think anyone of us missed your point. This industry is a complicated mess of individual interests and contracts. There are billions of dollars at stake here and there is no way mainline could simply "take back" the regional flying with one contract. If we all take a step back and start to think about this strategically, a standard FFDC contract and cooperation is the best first step in "getting rid" of the regionals. In effect, we would be removing some of the benefits of outsourcing regional flying in the first place. In the long term (probably 30 years or more), this may lead to outsourcing becoming more trouble than it's worth and legacies may return some of the flying in house.

Think about this, you can be sure that mainline management has a plan for the next 10-20-30 years, we would be foolish if we didn't.
 
Good grief, I logged onto my own website and had to check the address bar to make sure I didn't type in something else by mistake.
 
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