"We'll try our best"

[Tommay85]

Preface: In general, JetBlue is terrible, AWFUL in Aruba. US based carriers are just plain unacceptably moronic here too. No one knows what in the HELL they are doing there to be honest; except for Ameriflight, Iselair(sometimes), and sometimes Lazer(from Venezuela of all places). The US based carriers SOMEHOW fly to JFK, ORD, and other high traffic areas. Jesus... This is, after all, a BASIC CLASS D airport, as depicted CLEARLY on ALL the charts. So what gives???

There WILL be a midair someday.

Traffic and controller work load has increased a lot in the the past few months or so, and there is a drastic increase in US and SA based operations. Those of which can't seem to figure out their current radial from the secondary radio becon(BEA VOR) and/or the primary DME from the primary navaid. Or can even communicate with ATC in a pretty basic manner. There weren't any issues until the drastic increase in US and VZ based operators though.

FOs, CA decides they can do the visual straight in from 7 miles out in an A320 at 8000 feet. Do you try it? Keep in mind, that feat is IMPOSSIBLE in a Metroliner. Which is a filthy old turbo-prop from the 80s. Doable if you accept a SEVERELY unstabilized approach. Needless to say from the original thread title, they went around and undoubtedly caused more confusion. Thankfully, most everyone else was on the ground shortly after.

Secondary venting at ATC in this area and the sheer incompetence that's witnessed almost everyday in this location. We are all seriously sick and tired of preventing midairs.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Preface: In general, JetBlue is terrible, AWFUL in Aruba. US based carriers are just plain unacceptably moronic here too. No one knows what in the HELL they are doing there to be honest; except for Ameriflight, Iselair(sometimes), and sometimes Lazer(from Venezuela of all places). The US based carriers SOMEHOW fly to JFK, ORD, and other high traffic areas. Jesus... This is, after all, a BASIC CLASS D airport, as depicted CLEARLY on ALL the charts. So what gives???

There WILL be a midair someday.

Traffic and controller work load has increased a lot in the the past few months or so, and there is a drastic increase in US and SA based operations. Those of which can't seem to figure out their current radial from the secondary radio becon(BEA VOR) and/or the primary DME from the primary navaid. Or can even communicate with ATC in a pretty basic manner. There weren't any issues until the drastic increase in US and VZ based operators though.

FOs, CA decides they can do the visual straight in from 7 miles out in an A320 at 8000 feet. Do you try it? Keep in mind, that feat is IMPOSSIBLE in a Metroliner. Which is a filthy old turbo-prop from the 80s. Doable if you accept a SEVERELY unstabilized approach. Needless to say from the original thread title, they went around and undoubtedly caused more confusion. Thankfully, most everyone else was on the ground shortly after.

Secondary venting at ATC in this area and the sheer incompetence that's witnessed almost everyday in this location. We are all seriously sick and tired of preventing midairs.

Well, in the BroBus, you're probably gonna do at least one 360...

 

[z987k]

So the rum is pretty good huh?

 

[Tommay85]

Preface: In general, JetBlue is terrible, AWFUL in Aruba. US based carriers are just plain unacceptably moronic here too. No one knows what in the HELL they are doing there to be honest; except for Ameriflight, Iselair(sometimes), and sometimes Lazer(from Venezuela of all places). The US based carriers SOMEHOW fly to JFK, ORD, and other high traffic areas. Jesus... This is, after all, a BASIC CLASS D airport, as depicted CLEARLY on ALL the charts. So what gives???

There WILL be a midair someday.

Traffic and controller work load has increased a lot in the the past few months or so, and there is a drastic increase in US and SA based operations. Those of which can't seem to figure out their current radial from the secondary radio becon(BEA VOR) and/or the primary DME from the primary navaid. Or can even communicate with ATC in a pretty basic manner. There weren't any issues until the drastic increase in US and VZ based operators though.

FOs, CA decides they can do the visual straight in from 7 miles out in an A320 at 8000 feet. Do you try it? Keep in mind, that feat is IMPOSSIBLE in a Metroliner. Which is a filthy old turbo-prop from the 80s. Doable if you accept a SEVERELY unstabilized approach. Needless to say from the original thread title, they went around and undoubtedly caused more confusion. Thankfully, most everyone else was on the ground shortly after.

Secondary venting at ATC in this area and the sheer incompetence that's witnessed almost everyday in this location. We are all seriously sick and tired of preventing midairs.

For clarity and less vocal frustration, two things.

First, the really high altitude approach clearance, and starting the approach in a state of confusion, in a busy class D with no radar. I don't fly an Airbus, so maybe it very well could start an approach that close. I don't know. I'd be really hard pressed to make it in a Metro and would probably have to go-around due to not getting configured by 1000 feet. I assume with a heavy jet, it'd be even more challenging to make that work. I'm not sure how they weren't getting an RA from me in combination with all this going on as well. Surely they saw me at least. I could see individual antennas and as they passed underneath. All that going on, do you continue?

It was very uncomfortable for me, and it does happen almost everyday. A crew is confused, tower is confused, the radio gets tied up, and I don't have TCAS or the best visibility out of the tiny windows.

Secondly, and what this thread is really about, what do pilots at US carriers receive for international training? We don't get much at Ameriflight other than "look at the airport directory entry requirements, and ATC section for the country you're going into". Which works, if you do that. However, it's almost always a US crew getting confused there. YV tail numbers are probably the worst though, and sometimes COPA and Southwest(unless there's an AirTran guy on board ) just plain tie up the radio too much.

Most corporate flights, most of the Caribbean airlines, Ameriflight, Atlas, FedEx, UPS, Spirit, and the European carriers consistently do just fine. What gives at the other airlines? Particularly JetBlue? The issues are position reporting and a general lack of knowledge with how the system works down here(TL is 40, you'll get your clearance during taxi, ect...). Maybe the position reporting issue is an Airbus issue?

All that being said, this really stems from the crazy high workload the controller is dealing with. Aruba really needs a revamp and should be a class C airport, or a least get a dedicated ground frequency.

 

[Tommay85]

So the rum is pretty good huh?

The rum is ALWAYS good and thankfully, never gone!

 

[Pachong]

Secondly, and what this thread is really about, what do pilots at US carriers receive for international training?

NONE.

 

[Baronman]

JB pilot here. Arriving to Aruba is indeed like an enema. My last time in there was a joke. Don't blame the pilots for ATC handing us a crap sandwich time after time.

Of all the islands I regularly do, this has the worst ATC setup. Too little service for the volume.

From like 50 miles out we're fighting to get down trying to get words in while ATC is looking for a missing KLM. Then they try to bail themselves out forcing us to a visual appch due to lack of spacing or force us into a hold.

Pony up Aruba... Get a friggin radar and controllers.

 

[Tommay85]

JB pilot here. Arriving to Aruba is indeed like an enema. My last time in there was a joke. Don't blame the pilots for ATC handing us a crap sandwich time after time.

Of all the islands I regularly do, this has the worst ATC setup. Too little service for the volume.

From like 50 miles out we're fighting to get down trying to get words in while ATC is looking for a missing KLM. Then they try to bail themselves out forcing us to a visual appch due to lack of spacing or force us into a hold.

Pony up Aruba... Get a friggin radar and controllers.

Hey, thanks for the peaceful response, considering the first post!

Agreed, Aruba sucks. But, I still feel it becomes considerably more "interesting" during the winter months when there are more US carriers. Guys never seem ready to give their position mainly, which is why I was curious what kind of training pilots receive.

 

[adk]

Hey, thanks for the peaceful response, considering the first post!

Agreed, Aruba sucks. But, I still feel it becomes considerably more "interesting" during the winter months when there are more US carriers. Guys never seem ready to give their position mainly, which is why I was curious what kind of training pilots receive.

Let's get constructive here ... what do you do that you wish the US jet jockeys would do too?

 

[Tommay85]

To name a few:

-Knowing their radial and DME. It's a D airport, you should be ready to report it. This is the same in the US, it's no different here
-Not tying up the radio asking for a clearance. You'll get it when you get it. There's guys trying to land, trying to get taxi clearence, trying to take off, trying to do 1000 more important things.
-Use correct radio phraseology.
-Set altimeters correctly. You're in FLs down to 40 coming down and starting at 2500msl going up. If it is set correctly, say your altitude correctly. FL 80 is not the same as 8000 if the altimeter setting is really high. Which it usually is, in the afternoon. It makes me really uncomfortable if I have to enter a hold between two airplanes and one of them is saying their altitude like they already trasitioned.
-United guys are the only ones that wave back on the ramp.

These things are small by themselves, but they are still annoying. Sometimes though, it also makes the whole already strained operation fall apart. Yes, Aruba is the root of the problem.

I named a few "US jet jockies" that never cause problems. I'm picking on the others.

 

[derg]

You seem really upset. You're going to blow a gasket before you're 30 if you're not careful!

Relax. Enjoy the spectacle.

 

[derg]

Trust me, I've heard some really ridiculous radio work over the ocean. Ridiculous to the point it takes ten minutes to get out a single position report because there's a set of rookies that haven't taken the time to read the theater guide, but it doesn't raise my blood pressure.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Trust me, I've heard some really ridiculous radio work over the ocean. Ridiculous to the point it takes ten minutes to get out a single position report because there's a set of rookies that haven't taken the time to read the theater guide, but it doesn't raise my blood pressure.

I waited about 20 minutes to get a position report in with SF AIRINC on the way to Kona the other day. I sipped coffee and chuckled. I wasn't about to lose it over listening to guys mash all over each other on the frequency. At least I wasn't stuck in the rough air that the airliners had to deal with.

 

[Avalon781ML]

You seem really upset. You're going to blow a gasket before you're 30 if you're not careful!

Relax. Enjoy the spectacle.

Its all the MTN Dew, Zebra cakes, and Slim Jims this guy has consumed! He's ready to GO GO GO all of the time! Poster child (well man really) for AMF!

 

[Tommay85]

Its all the MTN Dew, Zebra cakes, and Slim Jims this guy has consumed! He's ready to GO GO GO all of the time! Poster child (well man really) for AMF!

Not one of those threads...

Mountain Dew is delicious!

 

[Tommay85]

You seem really upset. You're going to blow a gasket before you're 30 if you're not careful!

Relax. Enjoy the spectacle.

Nah, I'm not mad. Just disappointed.

 

[Baronman]

To name a few:

-Knowing their radial and DME. It's a D airport, you should be ready to report it. This is the same in the US, it's no different here
-Not tying up the radio asking for a clearance. You'll get it when you get it. There's guys trying to land, trying to get taxi clearence, trying to take off, trying to do 1000 more important things.
-Use correct radio phraseology.
-Set altimeters correctly. You're in FLs down to 40 coming down and starting at 2500msl going up. If it is set correctly, say your altitude correctly. FL 80 is not the same as 8000 if the altimeter setting is really high. Which it usually is, in the afternoon. It makes me really uncomfortable if I have to enter a hold between two airplanes and one of them is saying their altitude like they already trasitioned.
-United guys are the only ones that wave back on the ramp.

These things are small by themselves, but they are still annoying. Sometimes though, it also makes the whole already strained operation fall apart. Yes, Aruba is the root of the problem.

I named a few "US jet jockies" that never cause problems. I'm picking on the others.

Sorry most airports we go to aren't asking us our radial and distance. It takes a second to load in the VOR get the course to it and do the mental math to get the radial. It's not just sitting there usually ready to go.

Allow me to assuage some of your fears. The plane fortunately is smart enough to flash the altimeter setting as we descend or ascend through the corresponding transition (A320).

May I ask how often you fly into Aruba?

 

[Dugie8]

I was down in the islands over Christmas. It had been a long time since I had done the "foreign" ATC thing and it took me a "minute" to re aclimate to doing things "wrong".

It is just asinine to get your clearance on taxi out, especially when you are going 3+ hours at .80
Correct radio phraseology seems to be defined by whomever is working at whichever island you are at

Clearing someone to land while I am still back taxing on your under developed AD surface area/runway then changing my turnoff as I am passing it..... Yeah, it's not the "northerners" who have the problems...

 

[Tommay85]

Sorry most airports we go to aren't asking us our radial and distance. It takes a second to load in the VOR get the course to it and do the mental math to get the radial. It's not just sitting there usually ready to go.

Allow me to assuage some of your fears. The plane fortunately is smart enough to flash the altimeter setting as we descend or ascend through the corresponding transition (A320).

May I ask how often you fly into Aruba?

Once every two weeks as I hate the ground ops(getting a ride to the terminal, getting a GPU, getting paperwork, ect...) and am senior enough to avoid it. Sorry man, but your airline and other US carriers are making that place worse than it used to be. I'll still wave at you though.

Yes, most airports don't ask your position that way, but it is a D airspace airport with no radar. It would be exactly the same in the states...

 

[Tommay85]

I was down in the islands over Christmas. It had been a long time since I had done the "foreign" ATC thing and it took me a "minute" to re aclimate to doing things "wrong".

It is just asinine to get your clearance on taxi out, especially when you are going 3+ hours at .80
Correct radio phraseology seems to be defined by whomever is working at whichever island you are at

Clearing someone to land while I am still back taxing on your under developed AD surface area/runway then changing my turnoff as I am passing it..... Yeah, it's not the "northerners" who have the problems...

Yes, but all of that is in the Jepps/NOTAMS. Should be expected and I've never heard anyone get a reroute. If you did, oh no, typing!!!

I'm not defending Aruba or any of the other places that don't have pre-departure clearance or radar. It works OK when everyone's on the same page. It falls apart when they're not.

They use standard ICAO phraseology. The US does NOT typically.

Again, it's just as busy during the other months. The winter time sucks. Too many "unseasoned" US pilots. That's a NICE way to put it because, sorry, this stuff just isn't hard!