student pilot question

ozone

Well-Known Member
I finally figured out how to land (mostly). So, now i am doing my pre-solo written open-book exam. I have run into a question that I am having trouble answering. It is thus: if you have not been endorsed for landings at airport "x" could you still land? explain

My gut sez yes...if it's an emergency since, as a solo student pilot, I am still PIC. But, I have scoured the FAR part 61.93 and I cant find a definite answer.

Can anyone direct me where else to look? I have no problem with ideas of where to look if someone doesn't want to flat-out tell me a definitive answer. Of course, answers are also appreciated ;)
 

minitour

New Member
Take a look under part 91. I won't give you an exact reg number, but you might find something "early" in part 91 that you'll find interesting. Good luck. ;)
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
I finally figured out how to land (mostly). So, now i am doing my pre-solo written open-book exam. I have run into a question that I am having trouble answering. It is thus: if you have not been endorsed for landings at airport "x" could you still land? explain

My gut sez yes...if it's an emergency since, as a solo student pilot, I am still PIC. But, I have scoured the FAR part 61.93 and I cant find a definite answer.

Can anyone direct me where else to look? I have no problem with ideas of where to look if someone doesn't want to flat-out tell me a definitive answer. Of course, answers are also appreciated ;)
I would have trouble answering that question also. I'm not sure exactly what it is asking.

My warped mind says the answer to the specific question asked is "yes" even without the emergency. I'd be curious what your instructor's answer is and why.
 

Scandinavian13

New Member
That's a smart question, too. I was always interested in making sure I did things by the book, but never really cared to question that. Good question.

I wish more student pilots had questions like that.
 

KC Jake

Well-Known Member
I would have trouble answering that question also. I'm not sure exactly what it is asking.

My warped mind says the answer to the specific question asked is "yes" even without the emergency. I'd be curious what your instructor's answer is and why.
Without the emergency, the answer is no if you do not have an endorsement to land at the specific airport. In order to get an endorsement, the instructor has to first fly to and from the airport in question.

Check out 61.93(b)
 

upup89

Well-Known Member
As long as airport X is within 25 nm from the airport where you normally recieve your training. With the endorsement that is. However, the handbook put out by the school that I teach at prohibits student pilots from landing anywhere else unless its on a solo x-country. Not to just give the answer away but I'm sure by now you have found it. I agree, If its an emergency then I'm getting the heck down.
 

Matt13C

Well-Known Member
Have fun with the solo, you will never forget it! Youll be amazed at how the plane wants to jump off the runway without the instructors extra weight.

I think either yes or no is correct depending on how you back it up. yes, but only in an emergency or no, unless in an emergency situation and in both cases give 91.3(b).
 

cfii2007

New Member
You must receive ground and flight training on the specific airport you are flying to solo.

In addition, you must have an endorsement in your logbook from the instructor that under certain known conditions (weather...winds....) you are authorized to make the flight.

The only situation that allows you to deviate and land at another airport is in the event of an emergency (engine problems....low fuel situation).
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Without the emergency, the answer is no if you do not have an endorsement to land at the specific airport. In order to get an endorsement, the instructor has to first fly to and from the airport in question.

Check out 61.93(b)
61.93 deals with =cross country= flights. I didn't see a reference in the question to suggest that the flight was to an airport other than the departure one.

So, can you show me the requirement for identifying the airport in the initial solo endorsement? The reg and the AC 61-65 recommedned endorsement talk about aircraft make and model, but not "airport." And, I could certainly be wrong, but I'm pretty sure first solo involves a landing an an airport.

That's why I said my answer would be "yes" to the question as it was asked. (Told you my brain was warped)

I also, btw, disagree that authority to deviate to an unendorsed airport within the 61.93 context is limited to an "emergency," especially the way that that terms tends to be used. I make it very clear to my students that they are PIC solo flights and that they are welcome to divert in the interests of safety if things are not as they should be. For example, I =want= my students to divert for unanticipated bad weather =before= it becomes an emergency.
 

Scandinavian13

New Member
These are the only relevant entries I could find in my log referencing specific airports.




BTW - Has anyone else noticed that the text reads "solo cross-country flights not more than 50nm"?
Wouldn't that leave only exact distances of 50nm?
XC is defined at 50nm or more. This restricts it to not more than 50. That leaves it at 50. Wouldn't it be more correct to say "solo flights not more than 50nm"?
 

Attachments

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
TWouldn't that leave only exact distances of 50nm?
XC is defined at 50nm or more.
No it's not. The cross country definition you are thinking of is "more than" 50 NM - but only when are looking at a FAR that deals with one of the cross country requirements for the private (and other) certificates and ratings.

91.93 deals with authority to make cross country flights for a variety of purposes, not just for those needed to meet certificate requirements. For that purpose the more general definition of an airport other than where you started, regardless of distance, applies.
 

EineBeBoP

Well-Known Member
So then what defines X-C time?
If I log a flight from WHP to WJF (< 25 miles?) whats to stop me from considering that a cross country because I flew over the local mountains and I'm now "way out in the desert"?
 

Matt13C

Well-Known Member
So then what defines X-C time?
If I log a flight from WHP to WJF (< 25 miles?) whats to stop me from considering that a cross country because I flew over the local mountains and I'm now "way out in the desert"?
Nothing. Unless you want to apply it to a new rating.

61.1(b)(3)(i) defines XC as a flight in an aircraft by a person holding at least a pilots certificate with a landing at a point other than the point of departure. 61.1(b)(3)(ii) gives the requirements for logging XC time for the purpose of a rating.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Ah, alright.
So it has to be 50+ miles to count towards my IR?
Now it makes sense.
Yep.

The multiple ways the FAA counts "cross country" time is a bookkeeping issue. There are pilots who keep multiple cross country columns in their logbooks. The two most common ones A basic one for those >60 flights needed for their certificates and ratings. A "point-to-point" one for they day the may need to qualify for that first a Part 135 job.

But you need to read the definitions (in FAR 61.1). If you just want a summary, there's one on my web site:
When may I log cross-country time?
 

Old Pete

Cockpit Authoritarian
(Told you my brain was warped)
Well, you are a lawyer, isn't that assumed:D

I also, btw, disagree that authority to deviate to an unendorsed airport within the 61.93 context is limited to an "emergency," especially the way that that terms tends to be used. I make it very clear to my students that they are PIC solo flights and that they are welcome to divert in the interests of safety if things are not as they should be. For example, I =want= my students to divert for unanticipated bad weather =before= it becomes an emergency.
I can imagine many scenarios where a solo student would have to divert, but it would not be an emergency. Let me give you a scenario and ask you a question. You have endorsed a student for a solo cross country, when he approaches his destination airport he learns that an airplane before him has landed gear-up and closed the runway, so he diverts to an airport that is not on his cross country endorsement.

Now my question, can he take-off to either continue on his cross country or return home without another endorsement, or is he "grounded" until you or another instructor gives him another cross country endorsement?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Well, you are a lawyer, isn't that assumed:D


I can imagine many scenarios where a solo student would have to divert, but it would not be an emergency. Let me give you a scenario and ask you a question. You have endorsed a student for a solo cross country, when he approaches his destination airport he learns that an airplane before him has landed gear-up and closed the runway, so he diverts to an airport that is not on his cross country endorsement.

Now my question, can he take-off to either continue on his cross country or return home without another endorsement, or is he "grounded" until you or another instructor gives him another cross country endorsement?
That is a great question and it has come up in forums from time to time. I have never seen a good official answer and the points made on both sides have been pretty solid.

My purely personal answer (definitely not a legal opinion) is that I'd expect my student to call me. Depending (a lot) on the situation, the student, and what other reasonable alternatives there were, I would give the go ahead by phone. And be willing to pay the consequences for being wrong.

I can justify it under the regs (I don't see anything in 61.93(c) that that requires any limitation on the airports of takeoff or landing during a cross country), but I could be very wrong. And during one discussion someone pointed out the the Jepp private pilot manual has exactly this scenario - with the phone call).

But the bottom line for me is a non-legal one. FWIW, I include diversion language in my solo cross country endorsements, but don't name specific airports. My reason is not a cya to potentially cover an endorsement, but to emphasize to the student that diversions are a normal part of flying and that "missionitis" is a bad thing.- in case of a problem, don't be heading off to an "ok" airport and bypass good landing sites just because they are not listed.

Btw, if you detect a note on special interest in this question, it may be because I diverted to an unendorsed airport on two of my solo cross countries as a student pilot. Once for an equipment issue; the other for lowering ceilings across a mountain route. Neither was an emergency.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
61.93 deals with =cross country= flights. I didn't see a reference in the question to suggest that the flight was to an airport other than the departure one.

So, can you show me the requirement for identifying the airport in the initial solo endorsement? The reg and the AC 61-65 recommedned endorsement talk about aircraft make and model, but not "airport." And, I could certainly be wrong, but I'm pretty sure first solo involves a landing an an airport.

That's why I said my answer would be "yes" to the question as it was asked. (Told you my brain was warped)

I also, btw, disagree that authority to deviate to an unendorsed airport within the 61.93 context is limited to an "emergency," especially the way that that terms tends to be used. I make it very clear to my students that they are PIC solo flights and that they are welcome to divert in the interests of safety if things are not as they should be. For example, I =want= my students to divert for unanticipated bad weather =before= it becomes an emergency.
What constitutes an emergency? My student got REALLY lost on a cross country. He realized what was going on and called 121.5, who got him to another airport safely. The FAA called and said it was no big deal, as obviously it happens with student pilots. Would this be considered an emergency, though? I don't think he ever technically declared one.
 
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