Strapped for pilots, Republic asks partners to reduce flights

[Autothrust Blue]

OK, the money part I don't think they can help with, but I will say at my shop they do a good job enforcing the rules of the contract...still have the fly now grieve later mindset, I've just never been thrown into it

Yes.

There is no reason that a pilot group with 3,500 pilots should not have (for instance) aggressive pickup, something that was agreed to contingent upon IT support happening several months back. It hasn't happened yet.

(especially considering they can likely Ctrl-A Ctrl-C Ctrl-V the XJT software for it.)

Reserve doesn't have to be lousy duty. It's better for the Company if it isn't.

 

[Runincolorado]

As someone who may have wanted to fly 121 when he was much younger, I find this thread incredibly interesting in a "could have been me" way. As someone who has been in a highly competitive and underpaid industry, I cant tell you how similarly this reminds me of our own problems. Now tell me that regionals are paying referral bonuses to attract "top talent" and it will be identical.

 

[ppragman]

As someone who may have wanted to fly 121 when he was much younger, I find this thread incredibly interesting in a "could have been me" way. As someone who has been in a highly competitive and underpaid industry, I cant tell you how similarly this reminds me of our own problems. Now tell me that regionals are paying referral bonuses to attract "top talent" and it will be identical.

What industry are you in?

 

[Runincolorado]

What industry are you in?

Management Consulting but use to work in Finance.

 

[BobDDuck]

..still have the fly now grieve later mindset, I've just never been thrown into it

That's a function of the RLA (protect the continuity of service at all costs) rather than ALPA specifically.

 

[Ajax]

Yes.

There is no reason that a pilot group with 3,500 pilots should not have (for instance) aggressive pickup, something that was agreed to contingent upon IT support happening several months back. It hasn't happened yet.

(especially considering they can likely Ctrl-A Ctrl-C Ctrl-V the XJT software for it.)

Reserve doesn't have to be lousy duty. It's better for the Company if it isn't.

I'm on reserve, it sucks. But I can aggressively pickup. They can aggressively ruin your life too, and they do

That's a function of the RLA (protect the continuity of service at all costs) rather than ALPA specifically.

Makes perfect sense, and like I said my guys do a good job enforcing things. I've noticed scheduling trying a few loopholes here and there, I'll send the union an email and it generally will stop. I'm not a "union guy" but I can certainly see their use and benefit

 

[BobDDuck]

Makes perfect sense, and like I said my guys do a good job enforcing things. I've noticed scheduling trying a few loopholes here and there, I'll send the union an email and it generally will stop. I'm not a "union guy" but I can certainly see their use and benefit

The interesting thing is that a lot of the time, if you are a "union guy" the company won't mess with you nearly as much because you can quote contract sections and arbitration decisions proving that they can't use whatever loophole they are trying to beat you over the head with. I was the most junior captain in domicile on reserve at PSA for 3+ years and despite the huge amount of reserve abuse that occurred during that time frame (2008-2012) I avoided a lot of it because I could tell the scheduler (and the supervisor if necessary) why they couldn't do what they thought they could. After a few times of doing that, they pretty much stopped trying to stretch the rules with me. I heard (and saw) some horror stories about happened to guys on reserve and I'd ask them why they never spoke up (except after the fact to complain about the contract) and they always said they didn't know if it was legal or not and they couldn't reach anybody (or didn't try) to ask about it. Unfortunately you've got to advocate for yourself a lot of the time, even if you are fortunate to be at a property that has a duty pilot in OCC/Controler/SOCC/whatever 24 hours a day.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The interesting thing is that a lot of the time, if you are a "union guy" the company won't mess with you nearly as much because you can quote contract sections and arbitration decisions proving that they can't use whatever loophole they are trying to beat you over the head with. I was the most junior captain in domicile on reserve at PSA for 3+ years and despite the huge amount of reserve abuse that occurred during that time frame (2008-2012) I avoided a lot of it because I could tell the scheduler (and the supervisor if necessary) why they couldn't do what they thought they could. After a few times of doing that, they pretty much stopped trying to stretch the rules with me. I heard (and saw) some horror stories about happened to guys on reserve and I'd ask them why they never spoke up (except after the fact to complain about the contract) and they always said they didn't know if it was legal or not and they couldn't reach anybody (or didn't try) to ask about it. Unfortunately you've got to advocate for yourself a lot of the time, even if you are fortunate to be at a property that has a duty pilot in OCC/Controler/SOCC/whatever 24 hours a day.

As someone who gets frequent calls about not just our "policy," but Federal regulations, I'm here to tell you that I don't think that'd change much even with/esp. with ALPA on the property.

My experience suggests (re: 117 especially, but scheduling generally)...If you cannot determine if you are legal for it, you should really strongly consider not doing it (through whatever means are required, be it invocation of FRMP or simple refusal) - or waiting until you CAN determine that you're legal.

 

[Ajax]

The interesting thing is that a lot of the time, if you are a "union guy" the company won't mess with you nearly as much because you can quote contract sections and arbitration decisions proving that they can't use whatever loophole they are trying to beat you over the head with. I was the most junior captain in domicile on reserve at PSA for 3+ years and despite the huge amount of reserve abuse that occurred during that time frame (2008-2012) I avoided a lot of it because I could tell the scheduler (and the supervisor if necessary) why they couldn't do what they thought they could. After a few times of doing that, they pretty much stopped trying to stretch the rules with me. I heard (and saw) some horror stories about happened to guys on reserve and I'd ask them why they never spoke up (except after the fact to complain about the contract) and they always said they didn't know if it was legal or not and they couldn't reach anybody (or didn't try) to ask about it. Unfortunately you've got to advocate for yourself a lot of the time, even if you are fortunate to be at a property that has a duty pilot in OCC/Controler/SOCC/whatever 24 hours a day.

I know my contract well, and I'll quote it and page number often. They stopped trying about the 3rd time I called them on it. Now I also forward it to the union when they try

 

[BobDDuck]

As someone who gets frequent calls about not just our "policy," but Federal regulations, I'm here to tell you that I don't think that'd change much even with/esp. with ALPA on the property.

My experience suggests (re: 117 especially, but scheduling generally)...If you cannot determine if you are legal for it, you should really strongly consider not doing it (through whatever means are required, be it invocation of FRMP or simple refusal) - or waiting until you CAN determine that you're legal.

Don't confuse FAA mins and contractual protections. In most cases, the contractual protections are going to be higher than the FAA (117 or other) mins. I agree if you can't verify FAA compliance you probably have a legal case not to do whatever it is they are telling you to do. If you can't verify contractual compliance you have no legal case at that point in time (unless you can convincingly quote contract and grievance history).

Of course, you don't have the latter so your only protection lies with the former.

 

[BobDDuck]

I know my contract well, and I'll quote it and page number often. They stopped trying about the 3rd time I called them on it. Now I also forward it to the union when they try

If everybody would do things like that, the cases of contractual abuse would decrease tremendously. Unfortunately we are our own worst enemies and either through laziness, ignorance or personal gain, tend to shoot ourselves in the foot (as pilot groups) way too often.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Don't confuse FAA mins and contractual protections. In most cases, the contractual protections are going to be higher than the FAA (117 or other) mins. I agree if you can't verify FAA compliance you probably have a legal case not to do whatever it is they are telling you to do. If you can't verify contractual compliance you have no legal case at that point in time (unless you can convincingly quote contract and grievance history).

Of course, you don't have the latter so your only protection lies with the former.

If I'm so tired I can't figure it out, I probably shouldn't go flying

But, yes.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

If everybody would do things like that, the cases of contractual abuse would decrease tremendously. Unfortunately we are our own worst enemies and either through laziness, ignorance or personal gain, tend to shoot ourselves in the foot (as pilot groups) way too often.

As long as the destination is San Francisco and I'm off tomorrow... (etc.)

 

[Screaming_Emu]

The interesting thing is that a lot of the time, if you are a "union guy" the company won't mess with you nearly as much because you can quote contract sections and arbitration decisions proving that they can't use whatever loophole they are trying to beat you over the head with. I was the most junior captain in domicile on reserve at PSA for 3+ years and despite the huge amount of reserve abuse that occurred during that time frame (2008-2012) I avoided a lot of it because I could tell the scheduler (and the supervisor if necessary) why they couldn't do what they thought they could. After a few times of doing that, they pretty much stopped trying to stretch the rules with me. I heard (and saw) some horror stories about happened to guys on reserve and I'd ask them why they never spoke up (except after the fact to complain about the contract) and they always said they didn't know if it was legal or not and they couldn't reach anybody (or didn't try) to ask about it. Unfortunately you've got to advocate for yourself a lot of the time, even if you are fortunate to be at a property that has a duty pilot in OCC/Controler/SOCC/whatever 24 hours a day.

I found that I knew the contract best when I was on reserve. Now...not so much. Unfortunately pretty much everything good in our contract has a little note that says "does not apply to reserves."

So basically you wore yourself out arguing...then you got f'ed in the a.

 

[Ajax]

I found that I knew the contract best when I was on reserve. Now...not so much. Unfortunately pretty much everything good in our contract has a little note that says "does not apply to reserves."

So basically you wore yourself out arguing...then you got f'ed in the a.

My favorite was when scheduling told me that if they violated the contract twice it canceled out the other.

 

[mshunter]

I found that I knew the contract best when I was on reserve. Now...not so much. Unfortunately pretty much everything good in our contract has a little note that says "does not apply to reserves."

So basically you wore yourself out arguing...then you got f'ed in the a.

So true. Our contract sucks for reserves. Ask me how I know.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

So true. Our contract sucks for reserves. Ask me how I know.

I feel terribly bad for anyone who has been subject to our reserve for an extended period of time. I experienced the suck for 2.5 years and at that time it was enough to solicit an "oh my god man, I'm so sorry" from all but the most senior/unplugged from all that is happening captains. I can't imagine what it's like now.

 

[Polar742]

I feel terribly bad for anyone who has been subject to our reserve for an extended period of time. I experienced the suck for 2.5 years and at that time it was enough to solicit an "oh my god man, I'm so sorry" from all but the most senior/unplugged from all that is happening captains. I can't imagine what it's like now.

Just think about pilots at some legacy airlines that measured that time in decades.

 

[floridabeachbum]

If Repoopublic can't do it give it to Mesa!

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Just think about pilots at some legacy airlines that measured that time in decades.

Very true. That said...for the most part (though I understand not everybody) they were still paying the bills. At least compared to regional hell anyway.