Right Seat

milehigh

Well-Known Member
I have talked to several coporate/charter pilots on how they feel about other pilots willing to ride-along right seat, gain experience, basically fly for free. Some say get as much right seat time as you can and thats totally cool, and I heard one say thats not cool.

How do pilots generally feel towards a Private Pilot flying right seat for free?

And what would it take to log that time?
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
I have talked to several coporate/charter pilots on how they feel about other pilots willing to ride-along right seat, gain experience, basically fly for free. Some say get as much right seat time as you can and thats totally cool, and I heard one say thats not cool.

How do pilots generally feel towards a Private Pilot flying right seat for free?

And what would it take to log that time?
gotta be valid in that category/class/type, gotta be sole manipulator of controls, or required crewmember.

OR

if they have CFI/II/MEI, write it in as dual received.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
I don't like it. I would rather see a guy go out, get a 135 job, and make the decisions. Let's face it, if the guy is sitting in the right seat but not a crewmember, where is his CRM training, hell what's the difference between him sitting in the right seat and the jump seat, what decisions is he making, how is he contributing? No it's just a way guys try to pad their logbook for a future job. Now however, if that pilot is just "riding along" and not logging that time, then good for him. Just my 2 cents.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
I don't like it. I would rather see a guy go out, get a 135 job, and make the decisions. Let's face it, if the guy is sitting in the right seat but not a crewmember, where is his CRM training, hell what's the difference between him sitting in the right seat and the jump seat, what decisions is he making, how is he contributing? No it's just a way guys try to pad their logbook for a future job. Now however, if that pilot is just "riding along" and not logging that time, then good for him. Just my 2 cents.
i suppose its also up to whoever is riding along how much they want to get out of it or actively try and learn something (and also whoever is PIC how comfortable they are with allowing someone else to operate the machine.)
 

falconvalley

Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
I would say that all that is added to the basic idea that flying for free drives down the value of the trade.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
i suppose its also up to whoever is riding along how much they want to get out of it or actively try and learn something (and also whoever is PIC how comfortable they are with allowing someone else to operate the machine.)
Look, when I was in the Navy, I would put an aircrewman in the right seat and let them fly for a bit, doesn't make them a pilot. There's a hell of lot more to flying than keeping the rubber side down.
 

CK

Well-Known Member
I try to never fly solo or with an empty right/back seat. There is always some kid or low time pilot who would kill for a ride in some of the planes I fly. I know because I was there once! When I was younger a lot of people helped me out and allowed me to fly with them and I learned a ton about what being a pilot really means. I learned how to fly in bad weather (and how not to). As odd as it may sound, I basically learned how to become a professional pilot by sitting in the right seat watching other professionals. Now it is my turn to give back.

Alex.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
I don't like it. I would rather see a guy go out, get a 135 job, and make the decisions. Let's face it, if the guy is sitting in the right seat but not a crewmember, where is his CRM training, hell what's the difference between him sitting in the right seat and the jump seat, what decisions is he making, how is he contributing? No it's just a way guys try to pad their logbook for a future job. Now however, if that pilot is just "riding along" and not logging that time, then good for him. Just my 2 cents.
:yeahthat:

I can see riding along to observe what's going on and how things go in different airplane and different environments. A lot of the right seat stuff is questionable when you get down to logging it anyway.
 

falconvalley

Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
How if the airplane is single piloted (say a C-90) is that driving down the value of the trade?
A B200 is also single piloted (with the exception of the military version). Anyone who's made $350 a day to sit right seat in that, or a C90 or the likes, might frown on another pilot doing it for free. It's not about the FAA requirement. It's about the insurance requiring a rated pilot and pilots doing it for free drive down the value.

If the company generally doesn't require a right seater, we go right back to the original question. Is it right or not? Well, if the company doesn't require one, what are the odds that you received training in that aircraft and was doing something valuable as a crewmember? If you DID get trained and used well, you should not be doing it for free. You're a professional pilot. Professional pilots get paid to fly, from day one in that right seat.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
Yea, when I was younger I'd find a C310 driver and ride in the right seat with him to gain experience, without compensation, but I was by no means a required crewmember, a we were operating under Part 91 with no one paying a company for transportation.

The problem I have is with the example posted in another thread "No..No..No". A Part 135 operator puts a required crewmember in the right seat where he is expected to work for 25 hours per month for free, while making money off moving revenue pax/cargo as some kind of "training program" instead of paying employees to do work. This is 100% exploitation of the work force, and we as professionals shouldn't allow companies to get away with this practice. Just think about what would happen if Delta or Southwest suddenly stopped paying their first officers, claiming they were in training to become a captain and thus weren't owed any compensation (unless they broke guarantee). You guys laugh at this, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there are people reading these words right now who would jump at such an "opportunity". An extreme example, granted, but hopefully that helps people understand why the practice is frowned upon. That's food coming off people's tables. How sad, how illegal, and what a slap in the face to the profession.
 

falconvalley

Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
From a short term perspective, sitting in on a flight can be a big help. Like sitting in the jumpseat for familiarization before starting IOE or riding in the right seat of a C90 flying jumpers for a couple hours, just to prepare yourself for what you will be getting paid to do for that company. I can see that. But, when you occupy a seat for experience in tasks that others are paid to do...that's a whole different animal.
 

kgflyboy

New Member
Yea, when I was younger I'd find a C310 driver and ride in the right seat with him to gain experience, without compensation, but I was by no means a required crewmember, a we were operating under Part 91 with no one paying a company for transportation.
In my opinion, I think it's perfectly OK in this situation. If the company doesn't normally put two pilots in a plane, I don't see anything wrong with riding along for the experience. In this situation, the "volunteer pilot" is not taking away anyone else's job or lowering anyone's wage (as far as I can tell). In fact, I hope to do this some in the future. I'm curious... how did it work? Even though you weren't being paid, were you benefiting simply by the expereince? Or did you get to put the hours in your logbook as dual received?
 

milehigh

Well-Known Member
I hear what a lot of you guy's are saying, I completly understand, but what's wrong with flying right seat in a single pilot operation and logging dual time if the PIC has a CFI, CFII, and MEI? How is it any different then logging dual time in a single engine?
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
I hear what a lot of you guy's are saying, I completly understand, but what's wrong with flying right seat in a single pilot operation and logging dual time if the PIC has a CFI, CFII, and MEI? How is it any different then logging dual time in a single engine?
I would do it a few times for the experience, anything more than that, I view it as unethical, but still technically legal.
 

falconvalley

Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
In my opinion, I think it's perfectly OK in this situation. If the company doesn't normally put two pilots in a plane, I don't see anything wrong with riding along for the experience. In this situation, the "volunteer pilot" is not taking away anyone else's job or lowering anyone's wage (as far as I can tell). In fact, I hope to do this some in the future. I'm curious... how did it work? Even though you weren't being paid, were you benefiting simply by the expereince? Or did you get to put the hours in your logbook as dual received?
That's a great example. Let me put it this way...if you are qualified and would get paid at a different company, don't "sell" yourself short. It's nothing personal to the company that chooses not to need an additional crewmember. It's more on you to market what you are valued at. If you are not qualified, well you just aren't qualified and gain only "experience". How much safer do you become by sitting in the right seat of a C90 for 50 hours, before you are qualified to fly that thing? I know it's really hard to understand, but try to take my word for it.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
A B200 is also single piloted (with the exception of the military version). Anyone who's made $350 a day to sit right seat in that, or a C90 or the likes, might frown on another pilot doing it for free. It's not about the FAA requirement. It's about the insurance requiring a rated pilot and pilots doing it for free drive down the value.

If the company generally doesn't require a right seater, we go right back to the original question. Is it right or not? Well, if the company doesn't require one, what are the odds that you received training in that aircraft and was doing something valuable as a crewmember? If you DID get trained and used well, you should not be doing it for free. You're a professional pilot. Professional pilots get paid to fly, from day one in that right seat.
I would say that I agree with you. I don't see it being right for guys to jump in the right seat of a C-90, log flight time, fi they haven't been trained for it, when it costs a lot of companies and/or individuals several hundos to get that training.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, I think it's perfectly OK in this situation. If the company doesn't normally put two pilots in a plane, I don't see anything wrong with riding along for the experience. In this situation, the "volunteer pilot" is not taking away anyone else's job or lowering anyone's wage (as far as I can tell). In fact, I hope to do this some in the future. I'm curious... how did it work? Even though you weren't being paid, were you benefiting simply by the expereince? Or did you get to put the hours in your logbook as dual received?
Yeah but is that time logged? If it is, it's wrong, plain and simple. My wife tunes radios for me in our cheetah, opens approach plates, etc, but does she log flight time... no.
 

kgflyboy

New Member
Yeah but is that time logged? If it is, it's wrong, plain and simple. My wife tunes radios for me in our cheetah, opens approach plates, etc, but does she log flight time... no.
Valid point. I talked to a guy who used to volunteer to sit in the right seat for a charter company. The owner liked it because passengers liked seeing two pilots... they didn't realize the one in the right seat wasn't doing anything. However, after dropping passengers off, there were a lot of times he was allowed to fly the plane back to its base. I don't know if I understood him completely, but I guess without passengers the flight was no longer operated part 135 and was now operated part 91. During those portions he was the one flying the plane... not the paid pilot. He logged the time dual received. So, in some instances I can see how it would be possible to not be taking anyone's job or lowering wages and still be able to log the time.

Heck, if you are a cfi... there's no reason you can't let your wife do more of the work while you fly together and log the time.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
Well I'm a CFI, but my wife isn't a pilot and that's how I see this. She may help out but she hasn't gone through the hoops the rest of us had to get the quals. My only issue is the logging of the time, if the plane is that comples (turbojet, large turboprop) then usually joe average can't just jump in and fly, he needs a ground school, some form of checkride, etc.... Of course it could be some guy, qualed in the airplane, but due to the economy just was laid off, in that case, you've paid your dues, and most companies require the recency of experience (100 hours a year) which I don't always agree with. If you have a 3500 hour pilot who has only logged 30 hours in the past 12 months or a 600 hour pilot who has logged 100 hours in the past 12 months, who is the safer pilot? Good question.....
 
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