Part 61 and New ATP Rule

[davo3434]

Just curious if anyone else is in the same position that I am in when it comes to the new ATP rule. Before I start my rant, I want to say I fully support the hour requirements and training that have gone into effect with the new ATP ruling last year.

The big problem that I have is that I had already passed my Private (October 2011), Instrument (March 2012), and Commercial (December 2013) check ride before the rule went into effect. I am also enrolled at Utah Valley University (UVU) as an online student since the Fall of 2011. Talking with the University they confirmed to me that anyone who attends UVU as an online student getting a aviation related degree and participates in a 141 flight school (does not have to be UVU flight school, can be any 141 flight school) will be allowed to get the restricted ATP. For me that is a huge inconvenience. I will be graduating this spring semester with a bachelor’s degree in Aviation, which meets the new requirements. The downside is that because I did not do any of my ratings 141 (not knowing it would make a difference) I do not apply to the flight requirement for the ATP. In my opinion there should be in place a type of grandfather rule for applicants who got ratings before the rule went into effect. I picked the 61 training because it was 20 minutes from my house and it was convenient and cheap. The 141 program was an hour away which knowing what I know now, I would have happily paid extra and driven the extra distance to do it 141.

I have scoured the web for any literature or response from the FAA on this matter and I can’t find anything. Just wondering if anyone else is in this situation that knows of some type of wavier or has gotten an answer from the FAA.
*I'm new to the forums and wasn't sure if this is the right spot.

 

[aviatorx43]

You picked Part 61 training because it was closer, cheaper, and more convenient. Sounds like you made the right decision. Now get your CFI and build hours, and don't worry about not picking 141 just to save some hours.

I don't agree with the 1500 hour rule, BTW. And I don't agree with cutting breaks to 141 students or university programs. My 2 cents.

 

[subpilot]

What is the difference in required time? 250 hours... If so then who really cares? Get your instructor ratings and you could get that 250 hours in 3-4 months.

 

[davo3434]

Now get your CFI

CFI checkride is scheduled for next Tuesday. That's what my plan is to make up the hours.

What is the difference in required time?

Difference is 500 hours. With a 4 year degree you can get it at 1,000 hours.

If I came off as someone complaining, I apologize. What I really was trying to ask is if there is something out there right now that would allow me to get it sooner then I would like to know about it. I'd like to have my ATP on my resume so I can be more competitive in the pilot job market. If there isn't any type of waiver then that's just more instructing I have to do which is fine. There are a couple guys at my airport that are in the exact same situation as me and we haven't ever been able to get a concrete answer from anyone.

 

[z987k]

The 500 hours is nothing compared to the new requirements if you don't already have your written in hand.

 

[aviatorx43]

Are you going to pay $10K for the program just to qualify for the ATP written test??

You don't need to already have an ATP to be competitive. It sounds like the regionals will take anyone with 1500/25 and a heartbeat, who is willing to fly for the wages/QOL offered.

 

[davo3434]

Are you going to pay $10K for the program just to qualify for the ATP written test??

No I took my written before the sky fell last year so I don't have to spend the money.

I'm in somewhat of an unusual situation with my hours so what I really am going for rather than the regionals is a corporate position that wants to hire me, but for insurance reasons I need at least a R-ATP.

 

[av8tr1]

@davo3434
FYI the pilots who are responsible for the the Colgan air crash went to 141 schools. Didn't make them better pilots. I would argue just the opposite.

141 schools are a rip off. If you calculate the difference you saved in doing your training part 61 vers attending a 141 school. You're still going to come out ahead financially. You made a great choice you just don't know it yet.

There are plenty of other jobs available (and more every day) where you will never have to give a single day of instruction. I was half way though my CFI-A addon when I got picked up by an airline. Look into survey, patrol, sky diving, any number of other options besides instruction that can have you at 1500 hours in less than a year.

 

[z987k]

@davo3434
FYI the pilots who are responsible for the the Colgan air crash went to 141 schools. Didn't make them better pilots. I would argue just the opposite.

141 schools are a rip off. If you calculate the difference you saved in doing your training part 61 vers attending a 141 school. You're still going to come out ahead financially. You made a great choice you just don't know it yet.

There are plenty of other jobs available (and more every day) where you will never have to give a single day of instruction. I was half way though my CFI-A addon when I got picked up by an airline. Look into survey, patrol, sky diving, any number of other options besides instruction that can have you at 1500 hours in less than a year.

Having done training both 141 and 61, I would agree.

 

[Johnny Beau Bekkestad]

@davo3434
FYI the pilots who are responsible for the the Colgan air crash went to 141 schools. Didn't make them better pilots.

And they both had more than 1500 hours TT

This new rule is Bull cr@p

 

[Vector]

I hope the new hiring demand squeezes the airlines to ask the FAA for a review. 1500 is an arbitrary number that has no scientific basis. We all know that quality of time matters in most cases.

The government and their way of looking out for us. God help us.

 

[z987k]

I hope the new hiring demand squeezes the airlines to ask the FAA for a review. 1500 is an arbitrary number that has no scientific basis. We all know that quality of time matters in most cases.

The government and their way of looking out for us. God help us.

Screw that. It makes the cost of entry a lot higher, making people with an ATP a LOT more valuable. I honestly do not care about if it actually effects safety or not. What I know is it means we should all expect higher paychecks in the future. The low time guys that don't like it because they HAVE to build time now that want to make it go away would trade 6-18 months for the rest of their careers. It's extraordinarily short sighted.

But that's aviation isn't it? Trade away a million dollars for a five dollar bill today.

 

[Vector]

Screw that. It makes the cost of entry a lot higher, making people with an ATP a LOT more valuable. I honestly do not care about if it actually effects safety or not. What I know is it means we should all expect higher paychecks in the future. The low time guys that don't like it because they HAVE to build time now that want to make it go away would trade 6-18 months for the rest of their careers. It's extraordinarily short sighted.

But that's aviation isn't it? Trade away a million dollars for a five dollar bill today.

If that is what it takes to make pilots valuable, then there are other issues. As you pointed out, your position is highly influenced by self interest. That seems to be the issue with aviation in general.
The notion that requiring more hours translate to higher paycheck is laughable. I am sure you have heard the phrase "will fly for food". As funny as it sounds, it actually points to larger issues which I am sure you know of. The hour requirement will never solve that and therefore your realization of increased worth by potential employer will never come to fruition.

 

[z987k]

If that is what it takes to make pilots valuable, then there are other issues. As you pointed out, your position is highly influenced by self interest. That seems to be the issue with aviation in general.
The notion that requiring more hours translate to higher paycheck is laughable. I am sure you have heard the phrase "will fly for food". As funny as it sounds, it actually points to larger issues which I am sure you know of. The hour requirement will never solve that and therefore your realization of increased worth by potential employer will never come to fruition.

The nice thing is people that will fly for food will be more likely to be weeded out because the cost of entry is too high and takes too long.
It's not just in my self interest, it's in every professional aviator's interest if they can see past 12 months into their career.

 

[Vector]

The nice thing is people that will fly for food will be more likely to be weeded out because the cost of entry is too high and takes too long.
It's not just in my self interest, it's in every professional aviator's interest if they can see past 12 months into their career.

My opinion is this: professionals have a board certified process for accreditation, usually aren't required to wear a uniform by their employer, usually set their own wages not the other way around. I like flying just like the next guy and think it pays pretty good for the good paying jobs.
People willing to fly for food aren't going to end anytime soon. If it were true, the Regionals would have closed their doors a long time ago. Truck drivers make more than some of these guys and you tell me it is a detriment to the industry. Aren't you at a Regional. If so, then you took the abysmal pay and have therefore contributed to the issue you addressed.

 

[Vector]

The nice thing is people that will fly for food will be more likely to be weeded out because the cost of entry is too high and takes too long.
It's not just in my self interest, it's in every professional aviator's interest if they can see past 12 months into their career.

My opinion is this: professionals have a board certified process for accreditation, usually aren't required to wear a uniform by their employer, usually set their own wages not the other way around. I like flying just like the next guy and think it pays pretty good for the good paying jobs.
People willing to fly for food aren't going to end anytime soon. If it were true, the Regionals would have closed their doors a long time ago. Truck drivers make more than some of these guys and you tell me it is a detriment to the industry. Aren't you at a Regional. If so, then you took the abysmal pay and have therefore contributed to the issue you addressed.

 

[z987k]

My opinion is this: professionals have a board certified process for accreditation, usually aren't required to wear a uniform by their employer, usually set their own wages not the other way around. I like flying just like the next guy and think it pays pretty good for the good paying jobs.
People willing to fly for food aren't going to end anytime soon. If it were true, the Regionals would have closed their doors a long time ago. Truck drivers make more than some of these guys and you tell me it is a detriment to the industry. Aren't you at a Regional. If so, then you took the abysmal pay and have therefore contributed to the issue you addressed.

I never said we were white collar workers. We're VERY blue. I fly a King Air 200.
The 135 side of the industry is going to get hit a lot harder than the airlines. The majority of shops are going to have no way to get people ATPs and the vast majority of 135 flying requires an ATP. We're already seeing it at my shop. Wages will be going up to try to keep people from leaving to LCC and Majors. They have no choice. There is now an artificially limited supply of ATP holders. The time required to get to the ATP level is much higher than commercial, and the cost is simply outrageous for the ground school and checkride.

 

[Johnny Beau Bekkestad]

What is going to happen before they raise the salary is that they are going to try to offset the loss of people by closing routes from smaller/lees needed places. It has already happened.
So thinking that this 1500 rule is the life saver that will bring the pilots pay check above food stamp level is ridiculous.

 

[aviatorx43]

Yeah I don't get it either. The regionals just won't have to require that applicants have the ATP written done prior to hire. They will still be able to pick from everybody waiting in line to make $20,000 a year.

 

[Vector]

I never said we were white collar workers. We're VERY blue. I fly a King Air 200.
The 135 side of the industry is going to get hit a lot harder than the airlines. The majority of shops are going to have no way to get people ATPs and the vast majority of 135 flying requires an ATP. We're already seeing it at my shop. Wages will be going up to try to keep people from leaving to LCC and Majors. They have no choice. There is now an artificially limited supply of ATP holders. The time required to get to the ATP level is much higher than commercial, and the cost is simply outrageous for the ground school and checkride.

Essentially, expecting white collar type salary for blue collar work. I wonder what truck drivers would think.